chess

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Crunchums
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:00 pm

15 queens and 1 king vs a regular setup
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Re: chess

Post by KingRamz » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Crunchums wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:00 pm 15 queens and 1 king vs a regular setup
Then you capture everything but their king and have your queens start checking your own king over and over

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Re: chess

Post by Juri » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:13 pm

Crunchums wrote: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:44 am "his play from this point on to the end of the game leaves rather sad impression of a really broken man"
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:01 pm

https://www.chess.com/news/view/updated ... game-match
so maybe all the people complaining about how the specifics of the match (time controls / hardware / access to opening books / etc) made things meaningless will be proven wrong?
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:07 pm

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AlphaZero's results (wins green, losses red) vs the latest Stockfish and vs Stockfish with a strong opening book.
wait, so with an opening book AlphaZero won more frequently with Black? at the cost of losing more, I guess, but that's still weird
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:09 pm

Crunchums wrote:https://www.chess.com/news/view/updated ... game-match
so maybe all the people complaining about how the specifics of the match (time controls / hardware / access to opening books / etc) made things meaningless will be proven wrong?
In the match, both AlphaZero and Stockfish were given three hours each game plus a 15-second increment per move. This time control would seem to make obsolete one of the biggest arguments against the impact of last year's match, namely that the 2017 time control of one minute per move played to Stockfish's disadvantage.
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:10 pm

hey juice penny for your thoughts :supo:
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Re: chess

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:28 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:07 pm Image
AlphaZero's results (wins green, losses red) vs the latest Stockfish and vs Stockfish with a strong opening book.
wait, so with an opening book AlphaZero won more frequently with Black? at the cost of losing more, I guess, but that's still weird
I think i would say rather that stockfish plays more aggressively with white; if i were composing an opening book for stockfish, I wouldn't really fear complicated positions.

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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:32 pm

Rylinks wrote:if i were composing an opening book for stockfish, I wouldn't really fear complicated positions.
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Re: chess

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:41 pm

stockfish was the strongest engine in the world, or very close to it at least. The people writing the opening book might have favored openings that tend toward a win for one side or the other, because before alphazero, there might not have been opponents who could take advantage of black's winning chances.

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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:50 pm

you are saying that the opening book might be biased towards "worse" EV openings because our current evaluation of openings is off (relative to the platonic ideal of a perfect evaluation) - do i understand you correctly?
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Re: chess

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:54 pm

i would not say that they're off compared to a platonic ideal of a perfect opening; just that they're good against stockfish's usual opponents and bad when stockfish is playing alphazero.

This isn't entirely a property of the opening--stockfish could play the same opening as alphazero, and it could be bad EV if that opening leads to positions where alphazero can leverage its strengths compared to more boring drawish openings.

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Re: chess

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:57 pm

basically:
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you

stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.

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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:59 pm

yeah sorry "platonic ideal" was imprecise there
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Re: chess

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:59 pm

(it also might be because of tournament structure, you get most of the prizes for winning the tournament, so increasing variance at the cost of EV can be beneficial.)

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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:01 pm

Rylinks wrote:basically:
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you

stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.
well, but it might be more than just better/worse than you, it might be more like our idea of what the best chess looks like is off, and the opening book is affected accordingly. like maybe stockfish is actually worse off going for a particular opening that happens to be more drawish because it turns out that at A0's idea of the best chess that opening is actually just bad for one side
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Re: chess

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:05 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:01 pm
Rylinks wrote:basically:
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you

stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.
well, but it might be more than just better/worse than you, it might be more like our idea of what the best chess looks like is off, and the opening book is affected accordingly. like maybe stockfish is actually worse off going for a particular opening that happens to be more drawish because it turns out that at A0's idea of the best chess that opening is actually just bad for one side
that is possible, but I think that explanation fits better if alphazero just straight up won more, rather than both winning and losing more games.

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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:23 pm

that makes sense
I wonder what it looks like in terms of actual moves played - like the delta is going to come from games where SF deviates from the book, right? does that means that non-book moves are more drawish? it looks like adding the book also led to fewer wins (and still more draws) as white for SF, not just black
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:06 am

i have been playing chess again, and like actually trying to study
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taking screenshots of my rating makes me feel less bad when the number goes down

it's a great game for feeling like an idiot
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good job spending ~10 minutes getting a totally won position, and then throwing it away, you idiot (you = me; i am the idiot)
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Re: chess

Post by Doug » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:07 am

Oh wow is a centipawn a 100th of a pawn
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Re: chess

Post by Crunchums » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:11 am

yes
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Re: chess

Post by Doug » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:18 am

Amazing
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Re: chess

Post by drk » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:42 am

Looks like they had one really good move in there.

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Re: chess

Post by Juri » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:47 am

Doug wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:07 am Oh wow is a centipawn a 100th of a pawn
Pawn with one hundred legs
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Re: chess

Post by Monty » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:57 am

It's like a Human Centipede, but with pawns
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Re: chess

Post by Still Alive » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:52 am


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Re: chess

Post by Doug » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:26 am

Holy cow
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Re: chess

Post by Doug » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:47 am



Spoilers!
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
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Re: chess

Post by Doug » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:51 am



This video is even better I think
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
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http://devilsbiscuit.com/

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Re: chess

Post by Doug » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:23 pm

Watching a lot of videos of this

I wish it were on Xbox
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