chess
Moderator: Doug
Re: chess
https://www.chess.com/news/view/updated ... game-match
so maybe all the people complaining about how the specifics of the match (time controls / hardware / access to opening books / etc) made things meaningless will be proven wrong?
so maybe all the people complaining about how the specifics of the match (time controls / hardware / access to opening books / etc) made things meaningless will be proven wrong?
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Re: chess
wait, so with an opening book AlphaZero won more frequently with Black? at the cost of losing more, I guess, but that's still weirdAlphaZero's results (wins green, losses red) vs the latest Stockfish and vs Stockfish with a strong opening book.
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Re: chess
Crunchums wrote:https://www.chess.com/news/view/updated ... game-match
so maybe all the people complaining about how the specifics of the match (time controls / hardware / access to opening books / etc) made things meaningless will be proven wrong?
get wreckedIn the match, both AlphaZero and Stockfish were given three hours each game plus a 15-second increment per move. This time control would seem to make obsolete one of the biggest arguments against the impact of last year's match, namely that the 2017 time control of one minute per move played to Stockfish's disadvantage.
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Re: chess
I think i would say rather that stockfish plays more aggressively with white; if i were composing an opening book for stockfish, I wouldn't really fear complicated positions.
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Re: chess
stockfish was the strongest engine in the world, or very close to it at least. The people writing the opening book might have favored openings that tend toward a win for one side or the other, because before alphazero, there might not have been opponents who could take advantage of black's winning chances.
Re: chess
you are saying that the opening book might be biased towards "worse" EV openings because our current evaluation of openings is off (relative to the platonic ideal of a perfect evaluation) - do i understand you correctly?
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Re: chess
i would not say that they're off compared to a platonic ideal of a perfect opening; just that they're good against stockfish's usual opponents and bad when stockfish is playing alphazero.
This isn't entirely a property of the opening--stockfish could play the same opening as alphazero, and it could be bad EV if that opening leads to positions where alphazero can leverage its strengths compared to more boring drawish openings.
This isn't entirely a property of the opening--stockfish could play the same opening as alphazero, and it could be bad EV if that opening leads to positions where alphazero can leverage its strengths compared to more boring drawish openings.
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Re: chess
basically:
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you
stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you
stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.
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Re: chess
(it also might be because of tournament structure, you get most of the prizes for winning the tournament, so increasing variance at the cost of EV can be beneficial.)
Re: chess
well, but it might be more than just better/worse than you, it might be more like our idea of what the best chess looks like is off, and the opening book is affected accordingly. like maybe stockfish is actually worse off going for a particular opening that happens to be more drawish because it turns out that at A0's idea of the best chess that opening is actually just bad for one sideRylinks wrote:basically:
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you
stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.
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Re: chess
that is possible, but I think that explanation fits better if alphazero just straight up won more, rather than both winning and losing more games.Crunchums wrote: ↑Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:01 pmwell, but it might be more than just better/worse than you, it might be more like our idea of what the best chess looks like is off, and the opening book is affected accordingly. like maybe stockfish is actually worse off going for a particular opening that happens to be more drawish because it turns out that at A0's idea of the best chess that opening is actually just bad for one sideRylinks wrote:basically:
drawish openings are better EV against players that are better than you
the-opposite-of-drawish openings are better EV against players that are worse than you
stockfish usually plays opponents that are the about same or worse than it, so the opening book might be optimized for that case, and lose EV against the better chess player alphazero.
Re: chess
that makes sense
I wonder what it looks like in terms of actual moves played - like the delta is going to come from games where SF deviates from the book, right? does that means that non-book moves are more drawish? it looks like adding the book also led to fewer wins (and still more draws) as white for SF, not just black
I wonder what it looks like in terms of actual moves played - like the delta is going to come from games where SF deviates from the book, right? does that means that non-book moves are more drawish? it looks like adding the book also led to fewer wins (and still more draws) as white for SF, not just black
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Re: chess
i have been playing chess again, and like actually trying to study
taking screenshots of my rating makes me feel less bad when the number goes down
it's a great game for feeling like an idiot
good job spending ~10 minutes getting a totally won position, and then throwing it away, you idiot (you = me; i am the idiot)
taking screenshots of my rating makes me feel less bad when the number goes down
it's a great game for feeling like an idiot
good job spending ~10 minutes getting a totally won position, and then throwing it away, you idiot (you = me; i am the idiot)
u gotta skate
Re: chess
Oh wow is a centipawn a 100th of a pawn
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Re: chess
Amazing
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Re: chess
Holy cow
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Re: chess
Spoilers!
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Re: chess
This video is even better I think
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Re: chess
Watching a lot of videos of this
I wish it were on Xbox
I wish it were on Xbox
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