netrunner

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:44 am

watching Ashenai and Jeb play made me want to write a post about strategy, so I am writing a post about strategy

inexperienced netrunner players tend to play the game in a suboptimal way similar to inexperienced magic players worrying too much about their life total. dealing 20 damage is a cumulative thing that you achieve by 1) "winning" the board state 2) being too fast for your opponent 3) some combo. similarly, getting to 7 points is about winning the efficiency/tempo battle.

earlier Ashenai and I were disagreeing about the role of luck in netrunner. he said that access luck is bad because there aren't enough accesses for it to smooth out. and watching those games, I can understand the thought process, because you were doing things like clicking through an Eli 1.0 for a single R&D access. not that that's always necessarily a bad play, but you won't win very often against decent players in that manner because unless you get lucky with accesses they're going to be doing more efficient things and you won't be able to keep up. that's why i was saying earlier that access luck isn't actually most important: most games are won or lost in other areas.

most runner decks have one of two gameplans: 1) aggressively mess with the corp so they can't deal with everything and eventually your accesses pile up 2) don't mess with the corp as much, but hit them very hard when you do
1 is decks like https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/606 ... -slotsmate or https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/621 ... at-worlds-
cards like Tapwrm or PAD Tap or Diversion of Funds that slow the corp down, bad publicity (Mining Accident / Val) and Aumakua fueling efficient runs, cards like Hippo or Emergency Shutdown to deal with big ice, cards like The Turning Wheel and Datasucker so you get more value out of each run
2 is decks like https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/610 ... tinentals- or https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/574 ... nationals-
instead of making a lot of normal runs, you're making a few runs with stuff like Stargate or Khusyuk, and also being good at getting into the remote so that the corp has to work very hard to score

when you click through Eli for a single access, that's 3 clicks to see 1 card. that's so much less efficient than if you had an R&D Interface (only 4 credits and now your runs are twice as efficient!) or were using indexing (2.5 times more efficient! (five instead of one, but you've got to run twice. though of course you won't always see exactly one agenda)). and meanwhile, you still hadn't found a decoder, so you're giving the corp a scoring window. and i don't mean this like oh that was terrible play on your part, especially since that deck has only 1 R&D Interface and 2 The Maker's eye (I). I'm just trying to illustrate how most games between experienced players aren't about access luck.

one corp play that I saw that's in a similar mindset was Jeb putting a Successful Field Test (which is a 4/2) behind a piece of ICE and then scoring it with Biotic Labor + Advance Advance Advance. again, using Biotic to score a 4/2 like that will sometimes be good, but it put you down to 2 credits with no payoff (in this case nothing was installed with the SFT) beyond reaching 2 points, which doesn't help you on the board. the earlier you go for a score the less likely the runner is going to be able to get in, but unless your deck is trying to win on tempo (example https://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/620 ... -at-worlds ) you're better off waiting for better circumstances to score - more payoff, not having to use the biotic, and not putting yourself on low credits.

this makes me think that it's actually really important to give newer players stronger decks, so that the differences in payoff between newbie-style play and more-optimal play are more obvious.
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Re: netrunner

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:06 am

this all makes sense, thanks!

and yeah scoring with biotic that way felt like a mistake pretty much as soon as I did it

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:50 am

cool :)
oh hey looks like the "starter decks with current cards" thing that I was looking for is coming tomorrow
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Re: netrunner

Post by Ashenai » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:41 am

Thanks for the tips! I knew clicking through an Eli to see one card wasn't great, but I didn't see a lot of better options. Maybe I should have been trying to draw into Maker's eye (I) or something like that more aggressively. (I didn't actually know what was in my deck.)

When is System Gateway coming out, do you know?

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Re: netrunner

Post by Juri » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:47 pm

i remember being a new player and playing a netrunner deck that had a DT in it
i dont remember if it was the newbie decks or not but the new player experience of resolving DT was total fuckin arse and it has soured me on unconditional tutors (for complexity reasons) in a cross-game fashion
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:44 pm

Ashenai wrote:When is System Gateway coming out, do you know?
full spoilers today!
https://nisei.net/blog/system-gateway-full-spoiler/
https://netrunnerdb.com/en/set/sg
looks like jnet doesn't have everything yet though : /
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:57 pm

https://nisei.net/players/learn-to-play/ neat
Ashenai wrote:I knew clicking through an Eli to see one card wasn't great, but I didn't see a lot of better options.
yeah like i said, those decks weren't doing you any favors
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:12 pm

apparently they just put everything up on jnet! yesssss

https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ufi6d7.png
probably not very good, but it's a neat design. i'm glad that they replace the 2*N damage trap with (Junebug) with 2 + N (https://netrunnerdb.com/en/card/30045). Cerebral Overwriter is still legal though! funny with False Flag. maybe you can set up early kills with dedication ceremony.

https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... rpru69.png
shrug. funny that it's in a set with Tao.

https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 0ahv8x.png
i've always wanted a card like this (compare Borrowed Satellite and LLDS Memory Diamond). I think Obo actually means it has a small chance of seeing play

https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... rqvaq4.png
Symmetrical Visage meets Laguna Velasco District. very playable for decks that want more draw, and it's a CF target

https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... ylwp0v.png and https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... jlrk96.png are neat designs

https://nisei.net/wp-content/uploads/20 ... v781kl.png
lol at the reminder text. i wonder if they want to move away from psi games
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Re: netrunner

Post by Ashenai » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:34 pm

Btw, this was the first time I played with Professional Contacts, and man do I not like that card AT ALL. It takes 7 clicks on it to break even, and you're very often in a situation where you have plenty of cards and just want some creds, or vice versa. It seems clumsy and bad. MO also takes 7 clicks to break even, but you can just jam Magnum Opus whenever. If you try doing that with Professional Contacts you're gonna be spewing cards into your heap.

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:16 pm

proco is really good in some decks. think of it more as "whenever you click to draw, gain 1" - over the course of the game, that's a lot of credits! yeah it's not going to provide enough econ on its own, but you're going to draw into other econ cards. though it's a bit of a sweepstakes as to how early you draw it; I remember when Kate would play 1of baby as a pseudo 4th proco
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:17 pm

i was planning on playing a bunch of games today but it looks like there are some annoying bugs with the new update; and that's the tea
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Re: netrunner

Post by Ashenai » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:20 pm

Baby looks better to me than Contacts, especially because it works in multiples!

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:23 pm

Ashenai wrote:Baby looks better to me than Contacts, especially because it works in multiples!
it doesn't work in multiples because it's unique (that's what the ♦ symbol means)
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:41 pm

Crunchums wrote:i was planning on playing a bunch of games today but it looks like there are some annoying bugs with the new update; and that's the tea
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yay
(the issues have been fixed)
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Re: netrunner

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:44 pm

draw button working seems important

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:23 pm

Image
8)
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Re: netrunner

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:28 pm

what do those numbers mean

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Re: netrunner

Post by Ashenai » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:30 pm

Crunchums has managed to fill in 56 of his 58 casual circles, and all 12 of his competitive circles

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:47 pm

56 ongoing games in the casual lobby, 12 in the competitive lobby
(the 2 means there are two "open" games; i.e. games that are waiting for a 2nd player to join)

for context, before today ~10-15 ongoing games was the norm
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Re: netrunner

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:29 pm

sweet

I will be around for a while if anyone wants to play more (is discord the best place to post things like that? idk how regularly people check the discord)

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:34 am

turns out Manegarm Skunkworks is super busted. since it's on approach you can make the runner pay and then fire Border Control or Nisei counter. also ridiculous with Anoetic Void. i think plop and apoc are the only runner cards that do anything (edit: Lucky Charm!). and that's the tea
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Re: netrunner

Post by Juri » Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:28 am

You linked to Sprint instead of Manegarm Skunkworks by accident (nrdb IDs are 1 digit away from one another)
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Re: netrunner

Post by Juri » Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:29 am

lol @ 'plop' abbreviation
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:03 pm

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good flavor text
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Re: netrunner

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:11 pm

speaking of, & w/r/t the earlier discussion: running an unprotected R&D is generally worth it even if you only get one access, right? what about R&D where pop-up window is the only ice?

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:36 pm

it depends on the matchup. maybe what wins or loses the game is how soon you can find some specific card, and you're better off digging for that. in general though, yeah, free R&D accesses are good value

when you add a pop up window... i guess the way to think about it is, right now you have an opportunity to get an access for a certain cost. how do you expect that will compare to your future opportunities? if your deck is planning to win with some huge payoff like Khusyuk, probably less good to pay through a pop up window a bunch. and what's the opportunity cost to making that run as opposed to doing something else? and what is your read on what's in HQ / do they want to draw agendas right now because they're ready to score, in which case stealing an agenda off R&D would be extra good?
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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:02 pm

Image
good art + flavor text
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Re: netrunner

Post by Ashenai » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:29 pm

That art looks "classic" in a way I can't define. It feels like the original art for the card, even though I know what the original looks like.

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Re: netrunner

Post by Ashenai » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:29 pm

Hey Crunchums, how's System Gateway? (Other than Manegarm)

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Re: netrunner

Post by Crunchums » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:58 pm

* I think it's the best set ever made in terms of understanding how to make cards for this game, both in terms of design and power level, and i'm super looking forward to future NISEI cards
* runner feels a little limited right now. not necessarily on power level relative to corp, just like, there are fewer good cards to choose from
* Pennyshaver!!! :wub:
it's great because it's Desperado, but still noticeably worse such that it's not just obviously the best crim console like Desperado was
* i have heard rumors that they have been planning to change the timing structure of runs, and that Manegarm will be less broken after that change
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