POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

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Dantes
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:49 pm

Hey Rylinks, can you think of a chain of cases that might lead to SCOTUS reconsidering Dobbs?

Roe was always open to challenges, the logic was flawed from the word go and the trimester scheme was rickety and left a lot of open questions. Dobbs seems really cut and dried, without much wiggle room, which I'm relatively certain was Alito's goal.
Abortion presents a profound moral question. The Constitution does not prohibit the citizens of each State from regulating or prohibiting abortion. Roe and Casey arrogated that authority. The Court overrules those decisions and returns that authority to the people and their elected representatives.
I mean, that basically says, the courts have no business in this argument. That's a really simple and comprehensive controlling opinion...I think.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:56 pm

yeah but i think in this hypothetical where 70 years from now the court flips it back again probably in the intervening time the alabama state legislature won't have decided hey you know what let's actually make abortion legal
so like yeah the court is giving the power back to the states in terms of deciding things, but in terms of what factors are important for determining what the law is the supreme court is the most important thing (though of course maybe the views of people do changes and in 60 years alabama is way more liberal on abortion; who knows)
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:58 pm

Crunchums wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:56 pm yeah but i think in this hypothetical where 70 years from now the court flips it back again probably in the intervening time the alabama state legislature won't have decided hey you know what let's actually make abortion legal
so like yeah the court is giving the power back to the states in terms of deciding things, but in terms of what factors are important for determining what the law is the supreme court is the most important thing (though of course maybe the views of people do changes and in 60 years alabama is way more liberal on abortion; who knows)
i don't know about alabama specifically but i think a good number of states would have changed their abortion laws in seventy years

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:04 pm

I think Alito had fun writing this opinion. He points out that defenders of Roe/Casey specifically claim that the only available options are to reaffirm Roe/Casey or overrule.
On the other side, respondents and the Solicitor General ask us to reaffirm Roe and Casey, and they contend that the Mississippi law cannot stand if we do so. Allowing Mississippi to prohibit abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy, they argue, “would be no different than overruling Casey and Roe entirely.” Brief for Respondents 43. They contend that “no half-measures” are available and that we must either reaffirm or overrule Roe and Casey. Brief for Respondents 50.
The very next line practically has an unwritten "In that case..." preceding it:
We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:04 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:49 pm Hey Rylinks, can you think of a chain of cases that might lead to SCOTUS reconsidering Dobbs?
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:06 pm

Rylinks wrote:
i don't know about alabama specifically but i think a good number of states would have changed their abortion laws in seventy years
plausible
i guess all i'm really trying to say is that controlling the supreme court is still a hugely important thing in american politics in terms of getting your way
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:09 pm

Crunchums wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:06 pm
Rylinks wrote:
i don't know about alabama specifically but i think a good number of states would have changed their abortion laws in seventy years
plausible
i guess all i'm really trying to say is that controlling the supreme court is still a hugely important thing in american politics in terms of getting your way
In my case, getting my way means that the Supreme Court is not a hugely important thing in American politics in terms of getting your way. :shrug:
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Yoss » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:13 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:29 pm
Crunchums wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:26 pm i mean judicial supremacy in the sense of "control of the supreme court is the only thing that matters in american politics", not this thing that comes up when i google
If congress does its fucking job, and Scotus stays out of the way, control of the supreme court is significantly less important.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:15 pm

lol
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Yoss » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm

A lot of people really, really mad about something that we found out about weeks ago

Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes

Rather than lobbying/protesting state legislatures, which seems both easier and more likely to result in good outcomes

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:17 pm

Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm A lot of people really, really mad about something that we found out about weeks ago
There was still room for hope and fear before the final decision was announced.
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes

Rather than lobbying/protesting state legislatures, which seems both easier and more likely to result in good outcomes
Right?
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm

Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes
There are a bunch of people who always think of the country federally
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Luna » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm

Yoss wrote:Rather than lobbying/protesting state legislatures, which seems both easier and more likely to result in good outcomes
but that would be worse than 9/11 and threaten democracy itself

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:19 pm

Doug wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes
There are a bunch of people who always think of the country federally
And a disturbing number of people who are so convinced they are morally correct that any behavior is justifiable in pursuit of their goals.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Yoss » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:22 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:17 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm A lot of people really, really mad about something that we found out about weeks ago
There was still room for hope and fear before the final decision was announced.
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes

Rather than lobbying/protesting state legislatures, which seems both easier and more likely to result in good outcomes
Right?
I mean, I didn’t have any hope that they’d change their mind or something. The most upsetting news today is the suggestion of now overturning other cases. Like, abortion is awful but clearly better than the alternative in some cases. We should strive for a society where nobody ever needs one. This probably never should have come from SCOTUS and Dems are so unbelievably ineffective that they can’t pass anything. They could have done something for abortion under Obama, but wasted their time passing bad, compromised healthcare legislation. And today, they want to fundraiser and beg for votes.

We are seriously considering options for moving.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Yoss » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:23 pm

Doug wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes
There are a bunch of people who always think of the country federally
For sure! Like, 95% of government that affects your life is like city councils, maybe state legislatures. But people only care about the super bowl, I guess.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:24 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:09 pm
Crunchums wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:06 pm
Rylinks wrote:
i don't know about alabama specifically but i think a good number of states would have changed their abortion laws in seventy years
plausible
i guess all i'm really trying to say is that controlling the supreme court is still a hugely important thing in american politics in terms of getting your way
In my case, getting my way means that the Supreme Court is not a hugely important thing in American politics in terms of getting your way.
:meta:
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Luna » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:24 pm

Yoss wrote:We are seriously considering options for moving.
For the left, Canada couldn't possibly be more where it's at. We arrest and jail people for saying stuff the government doesn't like, martial law for peaceful protests, freeze the bank accounts of political dissidents and their supporters, and compelled speech! Our immigration stuff is apparently racist, but we allow gay marriage so you could just hook up with any of us single guys somehow. Polygamy is a bit tricky, though

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm

Luna wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:24 pm
Yoss wrote:We are seriously considering options for moving.
For the left, Canada couldn't possibly be more where it's at. We arrest and jail people for saying stuff the government doesn't like, martial law for peaceful protests, freeze the bank accounts of political dissidents and their supporters, and compelled speech! Our immigration stuff is apparently racist, but we allow gay marriage so you could just hook up with any of us single guys somehow. Polygamy is a bit tricky, though
Haha omg Democrats are monsters for not legalizing polygamy #MyWivesMyChoice
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Luna » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm

The downsides are we don't have a lot of jobs. You'd probably have to live in Sask (this is bad). Also you won't be able to buy a house, uh, anywhere.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Yoss » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:19 pm
Doug wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes
There are a bunch of people who always think of the country federally
And a disturbing number of people who are so convinced they are morally correct that any behavior is justifiable in pursuit of their goals.
Before engaging with people on politics these days, I try to ask questions like “why is murder bad?” And a lot of people just can’t answer in a satisfying way. There’s no internal thought process for morality. Like, I believe that I hold the most correct moral positions and try to alter them when presented with evidence. However, I recognize that I have biases and that enforcing my “good” beliefs on others is that same sort of logic that Nazis used, from their perspective. Therefore, I think that enforcing (most) beliefs on others is very dangerous. I’ve changed a lot since I was in high school, but “let people do whatever makes them happy, so long as they aren’t hurting anyone else” is a pretty easy hold.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:27 pm

Luna wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm The downsides are we don't have a lot of jobs. You'd probably have to live in Sask (this is bad). Also you won't be able to buy a house, uh, anywhere.
You should sneak into the United States, everybody's doing it
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Yoss » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:28 pm

Luna wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm The downsides are we don't have a lot of jobs. You'd probably have to live in Sask (this is bad). Also you won't be able to buy a house, uh, anywhere.
0% I would move to Canada. I don’t want the lite beer version of the US, no thanks.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Luna » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:28 pm

Doug wrote:
Haha omg Democrats are monsters for not legalizing polygamy #MyWivesMyChoice
actually is polygamy legal in Canada? it's kind of weird that polygamy is illegal, right? but i know it's illegal because that's how we got the cult guys in british columbia. man, is there ever a fucking story about those guys

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:32 pm

Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:22 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:17 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm A lot of people really, really mad about something that we found out about weeks ago
There was still room for hope and fear before the final decision was announced.
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes

Rather than lobbying/protesting state legislatures, which seems both easier and more likely to result in good outcomes
Right?
I mean, I didn’t have any hope that they’d change their mind or something. The most upsetting news today is the suggestion of now overturning other cases. Like, abortion is awful but clearly better than the alternative in some cases. We should strive for a society where nobody ever needs one. This probably never should have come from SCOTUS and Dems are so unbelievably ineffective that they can’t pass anything. They could have done something for abortion under Obama, but wasted their time passing bad, compromised healthcare legislation. And today, they want to fundraiser and beg for votes.

We are seriously considering options for moving.
I listen to the National Review editors pod cast. Post leak, most of them didn't believe the opinion would hold. Humans have vast capacity for doubt, self deception, and irrational hope.

As to the potential for overturning of other cases, most of them should probably be overturned for similar reasons. They were things that the courts should have had no business being involved in to begin with. Even if they were overturned though, it would have no practical impact. Let's say Loving, Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell just disappeared tomorrow, Interracial marriage, gay sex (securities fraud), contraception, and gay marriage wouldn't all suddenly be illegal. For most there is no appetite to try and outlaw them and even for Obergefell there's vanishingly little appetite. These are all politically decided questions. :shrug:
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Luna » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:32 pm

Yoss wrote:
0% I would move to Canada. I don’t want the lite beer version of the US, no thanks.
i mean i guess scotland is like slightly more totalitarian than we are because the completely and totally insane people running the country actually considered making it illegal to say stuff that they didnt like in people's own fucking homes, but i'd argue we're actually comparable. i think i have an example somewhere of the court threatening to send someone to jail for not recognizing that their kid was transgender which all would have been in their own home

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:34 pm

Doug wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm
Luna wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:24 pm
Yoss wrote:We are seriously considering options for moving.
For the left, Canada couldn't possibly be more where it's at. We arrest and jail people for saying stuff the government doesn't like, martial law for peaceful protests, freeze the bank accounts of political dissidents and their supporters, and compelled speech! Our immigration stuff is apparently racist, but we allow gay marriage so you could just hook up with any of us single guys somehow. Polygamy is a bit tricky, though
Haha omg Democrats are monsters for not legalizing polygamy #MyWivesMyChoice
I honestly thought that post Obergefell the new frontier was going to be polyamory. I never imagined that trans was going to be the new big thing.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:36 pm

Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:19 pm
Doug wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes
There are a bunch of people who always think of the country federally
And a disturbing number of people who are so convinced they are morally correct that any behavior is justifiable in pursuit of their goals.
Before engaging with people on politics these days, I try to ask questions like “why is murder bad?” And a lot of people just can’t answer in a satisfying way. There’s no internal thought process for morality. Like, I believe that I hold the most correct moral positions and try to alter them when presented with evidence. However, I recognize that I have biases and that enforcing my “good” beliefs on others is that same sort of logic that Nazis used, from their perspective. Therefore, I think that enforcing (most) beliefs on others is very dangerous. I’ve changed a lot since I was in high school, but “let people do whatever makes them happy, so long as they aren’t hurting anyone else” is a pretty easy hold.
there's not really any moral realism in the culture anymore so it's not that surprising people can't answer why murder is bad.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:37 pm

outside of religion but that's its own thing

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:37 pm

Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:19 pm
Doug wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm
Yoss wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:16 pm Also really weird that a common reaction is that we should harass justices in public and their homes
There are a bunch of people who always think of the country federally
And a disturbing number of people who are so convinced they are morally correct that any behavior is justifiable in pursuit of their goals.
Before engaging with people on politics these days, I try to ask questions like “why is murder bad?” And a lot of people just can’t answer in a satisfying way. There’s no internal thought process for morality. Like, I believe that I hold the most correct moral positions and try to alter them when presented with evidence. However, I recognize that I have biases and that enforcing my “good” beliefs on others is that same sort of logic that Nazis used, from their perspective. Therefore, I think that enforcing (most) beliefs on others is very dangerous. I’ve changed a lot since I was in high school, but “let people do whatever makes them happy, so long as they aren’t hurting anyone else” is a pretty easy hold.
Right?

I have some pretty strong beliefs, but they are just that: beliefs. I do not know them to be fact, I could be wrong. That suggests to me that a certain amount of humbleness is appropriate when trying to make decisions on difficult questions that impact vast numbers of people.
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