POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:38 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:10 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:06 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:00 pm i think the relevant time is when they boxes were taken to mar-a-lago
He can mishandle them all he wants while he is president. As soon as he stops being president he has absolutely no more right to those documents than I do.
if you somehow had boxes of classified information in your house, keeping them would not be a crime any more than the NYT is liable for posessing the pentagon papers
What a load of hair splitting horseshit.

The NYT is shielded by the 1st amendment and you damned well know it. It's still a crime for officers of the united states to mishandle classified documents and the idea that Trump is somehow exempt is farcical. Pretty certain 18 U.S.C. § 1924 applies.
this doesn't fit on its face, as trump did not "remove such documents or materials without authority"

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:40 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:39 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:38 pm It's still a crime for officers of the united states to mishandle classified documents and the idea that Trump is somehow exempt is farcical.
If you're talking about when Trump was president of the United States then you're talking about when he was utterly in charge of what is classified in the first place
He stopped having that right the second he wasn't President.
That's true, but the defense would be that he declassified them as he took them home, and it won't be provable that that's not true. The burden of proof would be extraordinary in this case
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:42 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:31 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:09 pm I am absolutely shocked. AG Garland just appointed a special counsel to investigate the Biden document mishandling.

I honestly didn't think he would do anything that even handed.
Is it an independent special counsel or is it a special counsel who works for AG Garland
Looks like a special counsel just like the one looking into Trump. :shrug:
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:42 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:40 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:39 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:38 pm It's still a crime for officers of the united states to mishandle classified documents and the idea that Trump is somehow exempt is farcical.
If you're talking about when Trump was president of the United States then you're talking about when he was utterly in charge of what is classified in the first place
He stopped having that right the second he wasn't President.
That's true, but the defense would be that he declassified them as he took them home, and it won't be provable that that's not true. The burden of proof would be extraordinary in this case
That's a provable claim. So let him prove it.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:43 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:42 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:40 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:39 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:38 pm It's still a crime for officers of the united states to mishandle classified documents and the idea that Trump is somehow exempt is farcical.
If you're talking about when Trump was president of the United States then you're talking about when he was utterly in charge of what is classified in the first place
He stopped having that right the second he wasn't President.
That's true, but the defense would be that he declassified them as he took them home, and it won't be provable that that's not true. The burden of proof would be extraordinary in this case
That's a provable claim. So let him prove it.
The way criminal defenses work isn't "Dantes vainly asserts that the burden of proof is with someone else just like he always tries"
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:43 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:38 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:10 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:06 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:00 pm i think the relevant time is when they boxes were taken to mar-a-lago
He can mishandle them all he wants while he is president. As soon as he stops being president he has absolutely no more right to those documents than I do.
if you somehow had boxes of classified information in your house, keeping them would not be a crime any more than the NYT is liable for posessing the pentagon papers
What a load of hair splitting horseshit.

The NYT is shielded by the 1st amendment and you damned well know it. It's still a crime for officers of the united states to mishandle classified documents and the idea that Trump is somehow exempt is farcical. Pretty certain 18 U.S.C. § 1924 applies.
this doesn't fit on its face, as trump did not "remove such documents or materials without authority"
If they moved from the Whitehouse to Mar-a-lago during the transition, then he didn't have that authority.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:44 pm

§
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:45 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:43 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:41 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:38 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:10 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:06 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:00 pm i think the relevant time is when they boxes were taken to mar-a-lago
He can mishandle them all he wants while he is president. As soon as he stops being president he has absolutely no more right to those documents than I do.
if you somehow had boxes of classified information in your house, keeping them would not be a crime any more than the NYT is liable for posessing the pentagon papers
What a load of hair splitting horseshit.

The NYT is shielded by the 1st amendment and you damned well know it. It's still a crime for officers of the united states to mishandle classified documents and the idea that Trump is somehow exempt is farcical. Pretty certain 18 U.S.C. § 1924 applies.
this doesn't fit on its face, as trump did not "remove such documents or materials without authority"
If they moved from the Whitehouse to Mar-a-lago during the transition, then he didn't have that authority.
i agree if trump removed documents after he was no longer president he may be liable, which is why i said the relevant time was when they were taken to mar-a-lago

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:49 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:40 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:39 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:30 pm Trump putting the documents in an unsecure location while he is still president implies declassifying them
No, no it does not. There is a process for declassifying documents, let's see the logs!
The president is completely in charge of that process and can declassify anything at any time
Actually, here's the current executive order governing the process.

The idea that the President can declassify something at a whim has never actually been tested in the courts. But sure, go on believing that the President can declassify stuff just by thinking about it. :rofl:
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:52 pm

whether or not the president can declassify stuff just by thinking about it, he is not bound by any specific process

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:54 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:49 pm Actually, here's the current executive order governing the process.
the current what order now lol
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:01 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:52 pm whether or not the president can declassify stuff just by thinking about it, he is not bound by any specific process
Strongly disagree, though I will concede that it should be tested in the courts. The closest I can find was a Federal Appeals court case that offered up this line: “declassification, even by the president, must follow established procedures.” Worth noting contectual differences this was about a FOIA request related to classified material that Trump had tweeted about.

The president defines the process via Executive Order. If Trump wanted to change that process, he could have. He didn't.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:02 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:54 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:49 pm Actually, here's the current executive order governing the process.
the current what order now lol
Executive Order. Which stays in force until it is rescinded or otherwise modified. Something Trump did not do.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:05 pm

I mean sure, Trump could have changed the rules on declassification. That is something that was totally in his power. He was too fucking stupid to understand the mechanisms of doing that though.

He is the Chief Executive, and any executive is bound by rules. Regardless that he has the ability to change them. He is not a god damned king, god emperor, or peerless tyrant.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:05 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:02 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:54 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:49 pm Actually, here's the current executive order governing the process.
the current what order now lol
Executive Order. Which stays in force until it is rescinded or otherwise modified.
look who thinks President Obama can order President Trump to do things in the future without legislation
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:10 pm

As different states and municipalities across the country adopt ranked-choice voting, it’s become obvious this mind-boggling election system deserves a new name: rigged-choice voting.

After nearly two months of tabulation, Alameda County, California, — one such ranked-choice voting (RCV) adoptee — announced it got the count wrong for its Nov. 8 election. As The Wall Street Journal reported, the California county admitted it made systemic errors while tabulating ballots. As a result of the snafu, an Oakland School Board race flipped: The top vote-getter (and certified winner) must now hand his board seat over to the third-place finisher.

While gross negligence on the part of some Alameda County election officials is not only probable but likely, RCV’s Byzantine election system must also take the blame. In it, voters rank candidates in order of preference. If no candidate receives a majority of votes in the first round, the last-place finisher is eliminated, and his voters are reallocated to the voter’s second-choice candidate.

Huh?

That isn't how it works, right
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:10 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:05 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:02 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:54 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:49 pm Actually, here's the current executive order governing the process.
the current what order now lol
Executive Order. Which stays in force until it is rescinded or otherwise modified.
look who thinks President Obama can order President Trump to do things in the future without legislation
Who? Because it is certainly not me.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:12 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:10 pm
As different states and municipalities across the country adopt ranked-choice voting, it’s become obvious this mind-boggling election system deserves a new name: rigged-choice voting.

After nearly two months of tabulation, Alameda County, California, — one such ranked-choice voting (RCV) adoptee — announced it got the count wrong for its Nov. 8 election. As The Wall Street Journal reported, the California county admitted it made systemic errors while tabulating ballots. As a result of the snafu, an Oakland School Board race flipped: The top vote-getter (and certified winner) must now hand his board seat over to the third-place finisher.

While gross negligence on the part of some Alameda County election officials is not only probable but likely, RCV’s Byzantine election system must also take the blame. In it, voters rank candidates in order of preference. If no candidate receives a majority of votes in the first round, the last-place finisher is eliminated, and his voters are reallocated to the voter’s second-choice candidate.

Huh?

That isn't how it works, right
That's exactly how it works.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:14 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:12 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:10 pm
As different states and municipalities across the country adopt ranked-choice voting, it’s become obvious this mind-boggling election system deserves a new name: rigged-choice voting.

After nearly two months of tabulation, Alameda County, California, — one such ranked-choice voting (RCV) adoptee — announced it got the count wrong for its Nov. 8 election. As The Wall Street Journal reported, the California county admitted it made systemic errors while tabulating ballots. As a result of the snafu, an Oakland School Board race flipped: The top vote-getter (and certified winner) must now hand his board seat over to the third-place finisher.

While gross negligence on the part of some Alameda County election officials is not only probable but likely, RCV’s Byzantine election system must also take the blame. In it, voters rank candidates in order of preference. If no candidate receives a majority of votes in the first round, the last-place finisher is eliminated, and his voters are reallocated to the voter’s second-choice candidate.

Huh?

That isn't how it works, right
That's exactly how it works.
Oh oh they mean if the last-place finisher is eliminated, his voters who had chosen him as their first pick are reallocated to those voters' second choices

I think that could have been better written
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:14 pm

Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:01 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:52 pm whether or not the president can declassify stuff just by thinking about it, he is not bound by any specific process
Strongly disagree, though I will concede that it should be tested in the courts. The closest I can find was a Federal Appeals court case that offered up this line: “declassification, even by the president, must follow established procedures.” Worth noting contectual differences this was about a FOIA request related to classified material that Trump had tweeted about.

The president defines the process via Executive Order. If Trump wanted to change that process, he could have. He didn't.
so if Obama decided to reveal classified documents about some CIA program, and did so by going up to a podium and giving a speech about the program where he said he was declassifying documents followed by providing the documents to reporters, this would be a criminal act because he didn't like, sign a new executive order?

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:19 pm

articles like that piss me off. "the people running the election sucked at it and made tons of mistakes. the thing to blame? ranked choice voting"

RCV is more complicated than first-past-the-post but it is really not that complicated; if the election officials suck then get better election officials
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:23 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:19 pm articles like that piss me off. "the people running the election sucked at it and made tons of mistakes. the thing to blame? ranked choice voting"
It was very opinionated
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:27 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:14 pm
Dantes wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:01 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:52 pm whether or not the president can declassify stuff just by thinking about it, he is not bound by any specific process
Strongly disagree, though I will concede that it should be tested in the courts. The closest I can find was a Federal Appeals court case that offered up this line: “declassification, even by the president, must follow established procedures.” Worth noting contectual differences this was about a FOIA request related to classified material that Trump had tweeted about.

The president defines the process via Executive Order. If Trump wanted to change that process, he could have. He didn't.
so if Obama decided to reveal classified documents about some CIA program, and did so by going up to a podium and giving a speech about the program where he said he was declassifying documents followed by providing the documents to reporters, this would be a criminal act because he didn't like, sign a new executive order?
Obama wouldn't have done that. And yeah, it would have been a violation of his executive order, not that anyone would have challenged him on that.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:34 pm

obama apparently did personally order declassification of a soviet-era intelligence brief. Could Obama be subject to a criminal investigation to determine whether that brief met the criteria for declassification under his executive order?

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:36 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:19 pm articles like that piss me off. "the people running the election sucked at it and made tons of mistakes. the thing to blame? ranked choice voting"

RCV is more complicated than first-past-the-post but it is really not that complicated; if the election officials suck then get better election officials
RCV is complicated, hard to explain to laymen, produces non-intuitive results, takes fucking forever to calculate, and significantly increases the complexity of our election system. The increased complexity and computational challenges are both direct threats to the integrity of our elections and reduce faith in the outcomes of election.

On paper ranked choice is a nice idea, in practice is is a really really bad idea.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:37 pm

i mean it sure seems to me like this assessment of the soviet space program meets the declassification criteria, but let's put it in front of a jury, see if they disagree

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:38 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:34 pm obama apparently did personally order declassification of a soviet-era intelligence brief. Could Obama be subject to a criminal investigation to determine whether that brief met the criteria for declassification under his executive order?
Presumably that directive was in accordance with his EO? Nothing you linked there suggested otherwise.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Khaos » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:40 pm

Doug wrote:
As different states and municipalities across the country adopt ranked-choice voting, it’s become obvious this mind-boggling election system deserves a new name: rigged-choice voting.

After nearly two months of tabulation, Alameda County, California, — one such ranked-choice voting (RCV) adoptee — announced it got the count wrong for its Nov. 8 election. As The Wall Street Journal reported, the California county admitted it made systemic errors while tabulating ballots. As a result of the snafu, an Oakland School Board race flipped: The top vote-getter (and certified winner) must now hand his board seat over to the third-place finisher.

While gross negligence on the part of some Alameda County election officials is not only probable but likely, RCV’s Byzantine election system must also take the blame. In it, voters rank candidates in order of preference. If no candidate receives a majority of votes in the first round, the last-place finisher is eliminated, and his voters are reallocated to the voter’s second-choice candidate.

Huh?

That isn't how it works, right
that sounds right to me. right and good.

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Khaos » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:41 pm

Dantes wrote:
Crunchums wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:19 pm articles like that piss me off. "the people running the election sucked at it and made tons of mistakes. the thing to blame? ranked choice voting"

RCV is more complicated than first-past-the-post but it is really not that complicated; if the election officials suck then get better election officials
RCV is complicated, hard to explain to laymen, produces non-intuitive results, takes fucking forever to calculate, and significantly increases the complexity of our election system. The increased complexity and computational challenges are both direct threats to the integrity of our elections and reduce faith in the outcomes of election.

On paper ranked choice is a nice idea, in practice is is a really really bad idea.
naw

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:44 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:37 pm i mean it sure seems to me like this assessment of the soviet space program meets the declassification criteria, but let's put it in front of a jury, see if they disagree
I don't get the point you're trying to make.

The President has the power to declassify documents. That is not in dispute. The question is whether the President has to follow a process. Rationally it seems he should, else how would you know if something had actually been declassified or not?

I get that you love playing Devil's Advocate, but it is really annoying right now. You know that an ex-President cannot make a claim of "Oh I declassified that" without some evidence that a process was followed and the documents actually are declassified. What's to prevent him from saying the same thing about theoretical classified documents that show up in Steve Bannon's underwear?
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