POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:18 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:10 pm i'm not sure exactly the issues this guy has with the higher education system, because the things he mentions are tiny bits of the problem. Most student loan debt is not from predatory for-profit colleges with 6-year pass rates of 10%. There are many universities in this country who rely on tuition dollars to survive, so cutting off the loan money will blow up many of them. Now, maybe this is good, on net. Maybe someone should have the courage to do this. But, blowing up the university system is hard not because they're a powerful interest group that politicians don't want to upset, it's because doing so will have bad effects short-term, and there's no guarantee that whatever replaces it long-term will be better.
oh yeah i agree that reading that tweet i was like "uh i don't think [stuff like predatory for-profit colleges with 6-year pass rates of 10%] is most of the problem"
but i think that the thrust of the argument holds; there are definitely structural problems https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/a ... subsidies/ etc
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:18 pm

Doug wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:12 pm
Khaos wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:09 pm how do you feel about that popular vote compact.
The Constitution says that the states can't make treaties or even agreements with one another apart from Congress, and the funny thing about the popular vote compact is that the Constitution literally uses the word "compact" as what you can't do
There's a legal theory that supports interstate compacts as constitutional and some case law around it.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:19 pm

regardless of the compacts clause status of the NPV compact, congress could end all doubt on that front by giving approval

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:20 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:15 pm i hope the NPV compact passes and then some state not part of the compact reports a popular vote total of 100000000000000 to troll
[clever joke involving Benford's law]
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm

Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:18 pm
Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:10 pm i'm not sure exactly the issues this guy has with the higher education system, because the things he mentions are tiny bits of the problem. Most student loan debt is not from predatory for-profit colleges with 6-year pass rates of 10%. There are many universities in this country who rely on tuition dollars to survive, so cutting off the loan money will blow up many of them. Now, maybe this is good, on net. Maybe someone should have the courage to do this. But, blowing up the university system is hard not because they're a powerful interest group that politicians don't want to upset, it's because doing so will have bad effects short-term, and there's no guarantee that whatever replaces it long-term will be better.
oh yeah i agree that reading that tweet i was like "uh i don't think [stuff like predatory for-profit colleges with 6-year pass rates of 10%] is most of the problem"
but i think that the thrust of the argument holds; there are definitely structural problems https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/a ... subsidies/ etc
there are structural problems! but the tweets are not an accurate summary of why people don't fix the structural problems, which is more like "fixing structural problems is hard and will hurt a lot of people"

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm

Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:12 pm
Doug wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:06 pm It just didn't seem like what you were saying was really different than what Dantes had said
the original thing that we were disagreeing about was
Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:43 am
haplo wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:34 am throwing votes out is the point of the requirements
It really isn’t. The integrity of the vote is the point.
Dantes is saying, the reason Rs are [throwing out votes and other stuff] is because they care about the integrity of the election
i am disagreeing and saying that they are doing it for a different reason
No, that's no what I said. I said that Republicans care about Integrity of the election for two major reasons:

1. Some are actually interested in the security of the election.
2. Some see championing integrity as a way of limiting undesirable votes.

Both are actually interested in the Integrity of the election, the challenging part is identifying the people who have bad motivations and marginalizing them.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:23 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:14 pm there's integrity as in, like, preventing actual intentful fraud and then there's integrity as in adhering to the rules as they were laid out before the election
I spent an hour last night effort posting what these terms and concepts mean.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Khaos » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:26 pm

i will be the first to admit that i didn't read that post. sorry dantes

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm
Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:18 pm
Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:10 pm i'm not sure exactly the issues this guy has with the higher education system, because the things he mentions are tiny bits of the problem. Most student loan debt is not from predatory for-profit colleges with 6-year pass rates of 10%. There are many universities in this country who rely on tuition dollars to survive, so cutting off the loan money will blow up many of them. Now, maybe this is good, on net. Maybe someone should have the courage to do this. But, blowing up the university system is hard not because they're a powerful interest group that politicians don't want to upset, it's because doing so will have bad effects short-term, and there's no guarantee that whatever replaces it long-term will be better.
oh yeah i agree that reading that tweet i was like "uh i don't think [stuff like predatory for-profit colleges with 6-year pass rates of 10%] is most of the problem"
but i think that the thrust of the argument holds; there are definitely structural problems https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/a ... subsidies/ etc
there are structural problems! but the tweets are not an accurate summary of why people don't fix the structural problems, which is more like "fixing structural problems is hard and will hurt a lot of people"
oh and seeing like a state legibility things--college makes competency legible, the state can just look someone up and see if they have a master's degree or not. If you want to make teachers better, well, perhaps a superintendent with vision and skill could choose teachers that were good by looking at them. But that's impossible to scale or to have a government implement so there's useless masters degrees instead

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:30 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm there are structural problems! but the tweets are not an accurate summary of why people don't fix the structural problems, which is more like "fixing structural problems is hard and will hurt a lot of people"
i thought that's exactly what the tweets said
It’s politically difficult to make a policy in which an influential group feels harmed.
but rereading it they're not on that vector as much as i had thought. but i am not interested in debating how much they're on that vector because i agree with what you are saying. but if your "hard" just means "difficult to find a solution that works" i would add that it should also include "once you find the solution it's also politically difficult to implement it"
but to me the most interesting thing is still
Crunchums wrote:i'm sure this is a problem for all democracies, so i wonder what about the US makes it worse
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:30 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:15 pm i hope the NPV compact passes and then some state not part of the compact reports a popular vote total of 100000000000000 to troll
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm

Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:30 pm
Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm there are structural problems! but the tweets are not an accurate summary of why people don't fix the structural problems, which is more like "fixing structural problems is hard and will hurt a lot of people"
i thought that's exactly what the tweets said
It’s politically difficult to make a policy in which an influential group feels harmed.
but rereading it they're not on that vector as much as i had thought. but i am not interested in debating how much they're on that vector because i agree with what you are saying. but if your "hard" just means "difficult to find a solution that works" i would add that it should also include "once you find the solution it's also politically difficult to implement it"
but to me the most interesting thing is still
Crunchums wrote:i'm sure this is a problem for all democracies, so i wonder what about the US makes it worse
i think hard is the less important part of my post and the more important part is "will hurt a lot of people"

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by KingRamz » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:33 pm

Doug wrote:
Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:15 pm i hope the NPV compact passes and then some state not part of the compact reports a popular vote total of 100000000000000 to troll
Newman Papillomavirus
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:34 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm No, that's no what I said. I said that Republicans care about Integrity of the election for two major reasons:

1. Some are actually interested in the security of the election.
2. Some see championing integrity as a way of limiting undesirable votes.

Both are actually interested in the Integrity of the election, the challenging part is identifying the people who have bad motivations and marginalizing them.
semantics - if a person's motivations are [want to limit undesirable votes -> championing integrity] then i do not think that "the integrity of the vote is the point" for that person
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by KingRamz » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:34 pm

Rylinks wrote:
Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:30 pm
Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm there are structural problems! but the tweets are not an accurate summary of why people don't fix the structural problems, which is more like "fixing structural problems is hard and will hurt a lot of people"
i thought that's exactly what the tweets said
It’s politically difficult to make a policy in which an influential group feels harmed.
but rereading it they're not on that vector as much as i had thought. but i am not interested in debating how much they're on that vector because i agree with what you are saying. but if your "hard" just means "difficult to find a solution that works" i would add that it should also include "once you find the solution it's also politically difficult to implement it"
but to me the most interesting thing is still
Crunchums wrote:i'm sure this is a problem for all democracies, so i wonder what about the US makes it worse
i think hard is the less important part of my post and the more important part is "will hurt a lot of people"
I can think of something that's hard and will hurt a lot of people


Wait, uh

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:35 pm

rofl
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:37 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 pm oh and seeing like a state legibility things--college makes competency legible, the state can just look someone up and see if they have a master's degree or not. If you want to make teachers better, well, perhaps a superintendent with vision and skill could choose teachers that were good by looking at them. But that's impossible to scale or to have a government implement so there's useless masters degrees instead
this is why vouchers / charter schools are so appealing to me on paper. don't try to have the government implement it - give people money and let markets handle it
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 pm
Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:30 pm
Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm there are structural problems! but the tweets are not an accurate summary of why people don't fix the structural problems, which is more like "fixing structural problems is hard and will hurt a lot of people"
i thought that's exactly what the tweets said
It’s politically difficult to make a policy in which an influential group feels harmed.
but rereading it they're not on that vector as much as i had thought. but i am not interested in debating how much they're on that vector because i agree with what you are saying. but if your "hard" just means "difficult to find a solution that works" i would add that it should also include "once you find the solution it's also politically difficult to implement it"
but to me the most interesting thing is still
Crunchums wrote:i'm sure this is a problem for all democracies, so i wonder what about the US makes it worse
i think hard is the less important part of my post and the more important part is "will hurt a lot of people"
the status quo also hurts a lot of people, though. but not in the same way that reform would
i am curious what your thoughts are on the "US specific" part of things
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 pm

Crunchums wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:34 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:21 pm No, that's no what I said. I said that Republicans care about Integrity of the election for two major reasons:

1. Some are actually interested in the security of the election.
2. Some see championing integrity as a way of limiting undesirable votes.

Both are actually interested in the Integrity of the election, the challenging part is identifying the people who have bad motivations and marginalizing them.
semantics - if a person's motivations are [want to limit undesirable votes -> championing integrity] then i do not think that "the integrity of the vote is the point" for that person
It's not semantics though. You have to understand the underlying arguments and possible motivations so you can begin trying to separate good motives from bad. If you don't understand why integrity actually is important, how can you possibly understand why Will Hurd (a cyber security guy) was interested in electoral integrity? That guy wasn't trying to suppress votes, and likely Ben Sasse and any number of other Republicans aren't either. Giuliani on the other hand is championing Integrity as a means of suppressing votes.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Rylinks » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 pm

i don't know other countries that well; what makes you think it's worse in the US?

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:43 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 pm Giuliani on the other hand is championing Integrity as a means of suppressing votes.
That's a conspiracy theory
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:50 pm

Doug wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:43 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 pm Giuliani on the other hand is championing Integrity as a means of suppressing votes.
That's a conspiracy theory
No, a conspiracy theory is the completely unsupported claim that a Venezuelan Cabal is seeking to install Biden. Not unlike the claim that Russians installed Trump in 2016.

My statement that Giuliani is championing Integrity as a means of suppressing votes is an informed opinion based on observation and the result of the testing that's been done on his claims.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:50 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:50 pm
Doug wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:43 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 pm Giuliani on the other hand is championing Integrity as a means of suppressing votes.
That's a conspiracy theory
No, a conspiracy theory is the completely unsupported claim that a Venezuelan Cabal is seeking to overthrow the election. Not unlike the claim that Russians installed Trump in 2016.

My statement that Giuliani is championing Integrity as a means of suppressing votes is an informed opinion based on observation and the result of the testing that's been done on his claims.
You don't have any proof for your conspiracy theory
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Crunchums » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:00 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 pm i don't know other countries that well; what makes you think it's worse in the US?
i read about other countries enacting reforms / designing systems / etc, but in the US it's status quo forever
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Shiny Days » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:13 am

Rylinks wrote:
well given the context of this discussion:

california's government is a trash fire. This is widely acknowledged, even among californians. I do not wish to be ruled by california.
i don't think this is actually true, but then maybe you mean the people actually still in the state of california are aware of this

because it seems like the people who actually fled california, because the people they voted for and put in charge totally ran the state and cities into the ground, are still voting for their team again because ???. you'd think, hope, there'd at least exist some self awareness here, but who are we kidding right

i guess hey though there isn't actually any long term consequence to their actions because they can just then go to a place that they haven't run into the ground yet

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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Dantes » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:56 pm

Trump's legal team cuts ties with Sydney Powell.

Which means that Giuliani isn't completely nuts.
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:13 pm

Shiny Days wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:13 am
Rylinks wrote:
well given the context of this discussion:

california's government is a trash fire. This is widely acknowledged, even among californians. I do not wish to be ruled by california.
i don't think this is actually true, but then maybe you mean the people actually still in the state of california are aware of this

because it seems like the people who actually fled california, because the people they voted for and put in charge totally ran the state and cities into the ground, are still voting for their team again because ???. you'd think, hope, there'd at least exist some self awareness here, but who are we kidding right

i guess hey though there isn't actually any long term consequence to their actions because they can just then go to a place that they haven't run into the ground yet
Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but Californians do not. They move to an area and they multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed, and the only way they can survive is to spread to another area
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:45 pm

I just saw gas for $1.89

Biden's doing a good job already
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:31 pm

Trump pardoned Flynn today

Already seeing (joke?) suggestions that Trump should immediately make Flynn the FBI director
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Re: POLITICS MOTHERFUCKER

Post by Doug » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:33 pm

The Federalist wrote:In all the excitement among objective journalists for Joe Biden's declared victory, reporters are missing how extraordinary the Democrat's performance was in the 2020 election. It's not just that the former vice president is on track to become the oldest president in American history, it's what he managed to accomplish at the polls this year.

Candidate Joe Biden was so effective at animating voters in 2020 that he received a record number of votes, more than 15 million more than Barack Obama received in his re-election of 2012. Amazingly, he managed to secure victory while also losing in almost every bellwether county across the country. No presidential candidate has been capable of such electoral jujitsu until now.

While Biden underperformed Hillary Clinton's 2016 totals in every urban county in the United States, he outperformed her in the metropolitan areas of Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. Even more surprising, the former VP put up a record haul of votes, despite Democrats' general failures in local House and state legislative seats across the nation.

He accomplished all this after receiving a record low share of the primary vote compared to his Republican opponent heading into the general election. Clearly, these are tremendous and unexpected achievements that would normally receive sophisticated analysis from the journalist class but have somehow gone mostly unmentioned during the celebrations at news studios in New York City and Washington, D.C.

The massive national political realignment now taking place may be one source of these surprising upsets. Yet still, to have pulled so many rabbits out of his hat like this, nobody can deny that Biden is a first-rate campaigner and politician, the likes of which America has never before seen. Let's break down just how unique his political voodoo has been in 2020.
It is impressive
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