Charho-oh Virus Thread

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Probably what *this* should be called.
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 2:37 pm

it is entirely reasonable to not get vaccinated if you have already had covid imo

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 2:38 pm

he hasn't had covid as far as i know and he interacts with his own older unvaccinated family members

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 2:41 pm

welp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Dantes » Mon May 10, 2021 3:14 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:35 pm very close friend of mine is not getting vaccine due to *reasons*

current thought is that i'm just going to tell them i don't really want to talk to them or hang out with them, because i am just too upset by it. and it's true. but if things ever return to normal times, where people can interact without fear of death due to herd immunity, then maybe we can return to normal times as well

on the one hand this feels petty but on the other hand i feel like i don't have any obligation to be friends with someone who doesn't give a shit if old people die, regardless of how long or strong that friendship has been until now
I've got to say, I think your response is overblown and histrionic. While a lot of people are comfortable with the science behind these vaccines, they were still created in a ridiculously short amount of time compared to historical vaccines. It is not unreasonable at all for people to be nervous about them or not be comfortable with them. And the bit about killing old people is specious bullshit, we aren't talking about an environment where there is no vaccine and you should wear a mask. Most old people who are willing to take the vaccine have, and are protected. The old people who aren't willing to vax up are responsible for their own decisions.

If this train of thought is enough to end a friendship, I question the entire friendship. :shrug:
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 3:21 pm

Dantes wrote:If this train of thought is enough to end a friendship, I question the entire friendship. :shrug:
get fucked. that train of thought is valid

however your point about my precedents being mistaken/overblown may be true and so the train of thought may not be sound. thank you for your input (this might sound sarcastic but it's not)

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Mon May 10, 2021 3:32 pm

it is not true that the only people who you harm by going anti-vacc are people who somehow "deserve" it (even if you think that makes sense in the first place). most obviously even the most effective vaccines are not 100% effective

I don't have any strong opinion on the right course of action, though. believing stupid & harmful things & acting on them isn't that unusual

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 3:38 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote:most obviously even the most effective vaccines are not 100% effective
but they've been shown to be 100% effective against hospitalization and death (in clinical trials) correct? just not infection

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Dantes » Mon May 10, 2021 3:50 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:21 pm
Dantes wrote:If this train of thought is enough to end a friendship, I question the entire friendship. :shrug:
get fucked. that train of thought is valid
A train of thought built on unstable precedents is not valid at all. If your friend was blind firing a rifle in random directions, and that was the precedent for doubting the friendship, I'd agree it would be valid. But that's not the basis.

Moreover, I have a very hard time with the idea of completely cutting people off. I understand that it is occasionally necessary, but those occasions should be rare (I've done it one time in my entire life). Friend and family relationships are supposed to be built on trust, mutual respect, shared experience, and toleration. Cutting someone off until they change a behavior you find problematic is tantamount to emotional blackmail. Unfortunately these days it happens at the drop of a hat, and usually as a result of something as small and petty as politics. I despise the entire practice.

If it's not clear, you stumbled into one of my big red buttons. :)
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:21 pm however your point about my precedents being mistaken/overblown may be true and so the train of thought may not be sound. thank you for your input (this might sound sarcastic but it's not)
I do not take it as sarcasm.
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Doug » Mon May 10, 2021 3:56 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:35 pm current thought is that i'm just going to tell them i don't really want to talk to them or hang out with them, because i am just too upset by it.
Upset because you're worried about them, or upset because they're not behaving properly
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Doug » Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:38 pm
Jeb Bush 2012 wrote:most obviously even the most effective vaccines are not 100% effective
but they've been shown to be 100% effective against hospitalization and death (in clinical trials) correct? just not infection
The vaccines lower the Covid mortality risk from .74 percent to .04 percent, which is an elimination of 95 percent of the risk
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 4:01 pm

Doug wrote:
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:35 pm current thought is that i'm just going to tell them i don't really want to talk to them or hang out with them, because i am just too upset by it.
Upset because you're worried about them, or upset because they're not behaving properly
i think they'll be fine based on their age.

im worried about them because they're not behaving properly and are endangering others

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 4:03 pm

Doug wrote:
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:38 pm
Jeb Bush 2012 wrote:most obviously even the most effective vaccines are not 100% effective
but they've been shown to be 100% effective against hospitalization and death (in clinical trials) correct? just not infection
The vaccines lower the Covid mortality risk from .74 percent to .04 percent, which is an elimination of 95 percent of the risk
ok that's different from what i thought. is there a link showing the data on this

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Mon May 10, 2021 4:03 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:38 pm but they've been shown to be 100% effective against hospitalization and death (in clinical trials) correct? just not infection
I don't think that's correct, no (I mean it's literally impossible for it to be correct since no trial could have enough participants to give you confidence of 100% effectiveness but I don't think it's true at like 99% either)

I think you're thinking of preliminary reports from trials where they had numbers on cases but no deaths yet, but iirc the number of deaths in the control group wasn't in the hundreds there either

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 4:04 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:38 pm
Jeb Bush 2012 wrote:most obviously even the most effective vaccines are not 100% effective
but they've been shown to be 100% effective against hospitalization and death (in clinical trials) correct? just not infection
sure in trials but the CDC has reported 132 vaccine breakthrough deaths: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/h ... cases.html

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 4:04 pm

Dantes wrote:A train of thought built on unstable precedents is not valid at all.
i mean this in the most literal sense of the word

https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

this is not about politics. we have vastly different political beliefs and i (edit: we) never let it get in the way of anything

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Doug » Mon May 10, 2021 4:04 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:01 pm
Doug wrote:
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:35 pm current thought is that i'm just going to tell them i don't really want to talk to them or hang out with them, because i am just too upset by it.
Upset because you're worried about them, or upset because they're not behaving properly
i think they'll be fine based on their age.

im worried about them because they're not behaving properly and are endangering others
CDC April 28 wrote:We are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms.
The purpose of the vaccines is to save the vaccinated person -- the CDC makes no guarantee that the vaccines stop you from spreading it
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm

yes but on the other hand the vaccines totally stop you from spreading it (mostly)

someone could be forgiven for not knowing this given the messaging though

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm

Doug wrote:
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:01 pm
Doug wrote:
Upset because you're worried about them, or upset because they're not behaving properly
i think they'll be fine based on their age.

im worried about them because they're not behaving properly and are endangering others
CDC April 28 wrote:We are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms.
The purpose of the vaccines is to save the vaccinated person -- the CDC makes no guarantee that the vaccines stop you from spreading it
yes i know this. my understanding is that it's only very very effective at stopping the spread

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm

we regret to inform you that the CDC is at it again

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 4:07 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm we regret to inform you that the CDC is at it again

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Doug » Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm
Doug wrote:
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:01 pm
i think they'll be fine based on their age.

im worried about them because they're not behaving properly and are endangering others
CDC April 28 wrote:We are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms.
The purpose of the vaccines is to save the vaccinated person -- the CDC makes no guarantee that the vaccines stop you from spreading it
yes i know this. my understanding is that it's only very very effective at stopping the spread
The CDC doesn't say this, why do you
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Dantes » Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:04 pm
Dantes wrote:A train of thought built on unstable precedents is not valid at all.
i mean this in the most literal sense of the word

https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/

this is not about politics. we have vastly different political beliefs and i never let it get in the way of anything
Okay, fine. It's unsound. Happy?
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 4:09 pm

Doug wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 pm
Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm
Doug wrote:


The purpose of the vaccines is to save the vaccinated person -- the CDC makes no guarantee that the vaccines stop you from spreading it
yes i know this. my understanding is that it's only very very effective at stopping the spread
The CDC doesn't say this, why do you
people on twitter told me so

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Dantes » Mon May 10, 2021 4:10 pm

Rylinks wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm yes but on the other hand the vaccines totally stop you from spreading it (mostly)

someone could be forgiven for not knowing this given the messaging though
This seems to imply that inconsistent and confusing messaging leads to inconsistent and confusing outcomes.
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 4:10 pm

Dantes wrote:
Okay, fine. It's unsound. Happy?
i always get happy when people start using valid and sound correctly consistently with how i use them

clear communication rules

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 4:12 pm

unfortunately i think language like that is not useful for communication outside of logical arguments

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Doug » Mon May 10, 2021 4:12 pm

Khaos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:10 pm i always get happy when people start using valid and sound correctly consistently with how i use them
When you say "using valid," do you mean "using 'valid'"
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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Rylinks » Mon May 10, 2021 4:13 pm

he who drinks sleeps
he who sleeps does not sin
he who does not sin is holy

therefore he who drinks is holy

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Mon May 10, 2021 4:14 pm

fortunately khaos is canadian
Public Health Agency of Canada wrote: Although COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting sick, scientists are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms. Early data show the vaccines do help keep people with no symptoms from spreading COVID-19, but we are learning more as more people get vaccinated.
understating the case a bit but better than pretending we have no idea what the effect is imo

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Re: Charho-oh Virus Thread

Post by Khaos » Mon May 10, 2021 4:15 pm

Rylinks wrote:unfortunately i think language like that is not useful for communication outside of logical arguments
yeah i mean i don't always insist on it. i understood what dantes was saying regardless which is why i appreciated his input

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