Food thread

Probably what *this* should be called.
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Jeb Bush 2012
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Re: Food thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:36 pm

to be even more scrupulous, you could imagine a situation where you shouldn't keep eggs out of the fridge for two hours because it would, e.g. bring the curse of the eggman upon you but would not affect the suitability of the eggs for sale

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Re: Food thread

Post by Dantes » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:37 pm

Still Alive wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:11 pm
Doug wrote:
This would be a good place for you to use my exciting new smiley, :horror:

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i thought you had one with blood, like you have one with tears streaming down its face. that would be a good horror
That smiley is clearly Doctor Weir right before he powered on the Event Horizon's drive.
Pour like Hemingway's last call.

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:38 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:33 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:30 pm yes and "you should not keep eggs out of the fridge for more than two hours" and "without refrigeration eggs wiill still have a shelf life of 21 days" are not opposite statements
they literally are
your claim is that samonella contamination in something like 0.01% of eggs means that all eggs have a shelf life of two hours

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Re: Food thread

Post by Grakthis » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:43 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:41 pm Worcestershire has fish in it, how does it not need to be refrigerated
it's fermented, so before they ship it to you, they let the fish sit at room temperature for a long time
"I let this sit at room temperature for a really long time" is actually the key to most of my favorite foods.
:grakiswrong:

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Re: Food thread

Post by Still Alive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:46 pm

Grakthis wrote:
"I let this sit at room temperature for a really long time" is actually the key to most of my favorite foods.
like what? salami?

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Re: Food thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:47 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:38 pm your claim is that samonella contamination in something like 0.01% of eggs means that all eggs have a shelf life of two hours
like I've been saying, it is not exclusively about salmonella contamination

if it is in fact unsafe to keep (previously refrigerated) eggs out for more than two hours then unrefrigerated-but-previously-refrigerated eggs have a shelf life of two hours, because that's the point at which they become unsafe to eat. saying "oh well most eggs won't do anything bad to you" is besides the point, because you can't tell which the bad eggs are

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:50 pm

it's a relevant point when the average time between bad ones, based on my egg consumption and 0.01%, is 300 years

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:52 pm

for someone who eats eggs daily, it's 27 years

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Re: Food thread

Post by Still Alive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:53 pm

Rylinks wrote:for someone who eats eggs daily
why

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:54 pm

and this is like, if the egg has salmonella you 100% are infected and get sick, which is a wild overestimate

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Re: Food thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:58 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:50 pm it's a relevant point when the average time between bad ones, based on my egg consumption and 0.01%, is 300 years
your claim was that "previously refrigerated eggs should not be kept out for more than two hours" was somehow consistent with "the shelf life of unrefrigerated-but-previously-refrigerated eggs is 21 days", which is nonsense

obviously if you don't believe the first claim then the shelf life of unrefrigerated-but-previously-refrigerated eggs can be whatever you want

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:01 pm

i was interpreting the first claim to mean "keeping previously refrigerated eggs out for more than two hours increases your risk of salmonella poisioning from those eggs" which is absolutely true. I just don't think it increases it enough to affect the decision of whether to throw eggs out if they haven't been refrigerated for two hours, which is what i meant by shelf life.

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Re: Food thread

Post by Grakthis » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:04 pm

Guidelines and recommendations are often based on benefit as well as cost.

I.E. There is almost 0 cost to refrigerating your eggs.
:grakiswrong:

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Re: Food thread

Post by Still Alive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:04 pm

Grakthis wrote:Guidelines and recommendations are often based on benefit as well as cost.

I.E. There is almost 0 cost to refrigerating your eggs.
electricity

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Re: Food thread

Post by Grakthis » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:05 pm

Still Alive wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:46 pm
Grakthis wrote:
"I let this sit at room temperature for a really long time" is actually the key to most of my favorite foods.
like what? salami?
Pickles, sauerkraut, kimchi, pepperoni, salami, soy sauce, hot sauce, fish sauce....
:grakiswrong:

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Re: Food thread

Post by Grakthis » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:05 pm

beer
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Re: Food thread

Post by Monty » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:07 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote:
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:34 pm in other things you can keep at room temperature: eggs :gft:
I don't think this is true for eggs in america https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... rld-doesnt
This is correct, and people should pay attention to it. An egg at a US supermarket has had its waxy covering removed, which makes the shelf life much, much shorter than in the rest of the world, where the waxy covering is still there.
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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:08 pm

for example, according to this USDA page one should not wash eggs, as that can increase the risk of bacterial contamination. that does not imply that if you have washed eggs they are unacceptably dangerous and should be thrown out

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Re: Food thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:10 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:01 pm i was interpreting the first claim to mean "keeping previously refrigerated eggs out for more than two hours increases your risk of salmonella poisioning from those eggs" which is absolutely true. I just don't think it increases it enough to affect the decision of whether to throw eggs out if they haven't been refrigerated for two hours, which is what i meant by shelf life.
the first claim means "keeping previously refrigerated eggs out for more than two hours increases your risk of illness by more than [acceptable level]", which is also how illness concerns for shelf life work, otherwise it would be 0 hours, not 2

the USDA may be overestimating the risks, I've seen at least one paper suggesting they are, but given uncertainty I am going to keep refrigerating my eggs, since doing so has inconvenienced me exactly once in my entire life

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:21 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:10 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:01 pm i was interpreting the first claim to mean "keeping previously refrigerated eggs out for more than two hours increases your risk of salmonella poisioning from those eggs" which is absolutely true. I just don't think it increases it enough to affect the decision of whether to throw eggs out if they haven't been refrigerated for two hours, which is what i meant by shelf life.
the first claim means "keeping previously refrigerated eggs out for more than two hours increases your risk of illness by more than [acceptable level]", which is also how illness concerns for shelf life work, otherwise it would be 0 hours, not 2

the USDA may be overestimating the risks, I've seen at least one paper suggesting they are, but given uncertainty I am going to keep refrigerating my eggs, since doing so has inconvenienced me exactly once in my entire life
no more than two hours at room temperature is the rule USDA recommends for all refrigerated food, so it is very unlikely that it is based on some kind of risk calculation for eggs rather than being a general rule that keeps food safe in nearly all circumstances

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Re: Food thread

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:31 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:21 pm no more than two hours at room temperature is the rule USDA recommends for all refrigerated food, so it is very unlikely that it is based on some kind of risk calculation for eggs rather than being a general rule that keeps food safe in nearly all circumstances
I'm sure, but "oh actually you can keep unrefrigerated eggs out for 6.5 hours" would not really imply anything different, behaviour-wise

(tbf the one time in my life refridgerating eggs has inconvenienced me knowing that you could keep them out for 6.5 hours would've helped, but that situation seems unlikely to recur)

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:36 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:31 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:21 pm no more than two hours at room temperature is the rule USDA recommends for all refrigerated food, so it is very unlikely that it is based on some kind of risk calculation for eggs rather than being a general rule that keeps food safe in nearly all circumstances
I'm sure, but "oh actually you can keep unrefrigerated eggs out for 6.5 hours" would not really imply anything different, behaviour-wise

(tbf the one time in my life refridgerating eggs has inconvenienced me knowing that you could keep them out for 6.5 hours would've helped, but that situation seems unlikely to recur)
sure, the reason i said the two hour rule was fine was because i was looking at it from a perspective of risk minimization and easy-to-follow rules of thumb (you don't want your rule to be 2.3 hours for pork and 2.8 hours for beef and 6.5 hours for eggs) rather than corresponding to an acceptable level of risk.

It's a fine rule from a risk-minimization perspective even if you can leave eggs out for a week and still have acceptable levels of risk--as you said it's usually not much of a hassle

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Re: Food thread

Post by Doug » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:37 pm

Still Alive wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:11 pm
Doug wrote:
This would be a good place for you to use my exciting new smiley, :horror:

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i thought you had one with blood, like you have one with tears streaming down its face. that would be a good horror
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It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
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Re: Food thread

Post by Still Alive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:39 pm

maybe i shouldnt have asked for that

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Re: Food thread

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:40 pm

requesting new smiley that is a detailed video explanation of how the tendons in your hands work

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Re: Food thread

Post by Still Alive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:44 pm

augh

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Re: Food thread

Post by Skeletor » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:57 pm

I'm really glad I posted
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: Food thread

Post by Still Alive » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:58 pm

i am also glad you post

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Re: Food thread

Post by Doug » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:11 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:40 pm requesting new smiley that is a detailed video explanation of how the tendons in your hands work
Image
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
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It's your turn in Demon Wars
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Re: Food thread

Post by pterrus » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:03 pm

Grakthis wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:05 pm
Still Alive wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:46 pm
Grakthis wrote:
"I let this sit at room temperature for a really long time" is actually the key to most of my favorite foods.
like what? salami?
Pickles, sauerkraut, kimchi, pepperoni, salami, soy sauce, hot sauce, fish sauce....
Do you not refrigerate pickles? The jar in my fridge says "refrigerate after opening" but I thought the whole point of pickling was preservation. So I'm confused. Googling doesn't help, I see people claiming both sides.

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