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Re: sports

Post by Skeletor » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm

anyone have opinions on how different professional sports have evolved in terms of their brutality?

like with basketball, i get the sense that in 50s-60s there's maybe not a lot of physical brutality. then by the 80s there's teams like the pistons whose gameplan involves beating the shit out of you, then in the 90s it's a very in-the-paint game and rough that way, but maybe less rough than the 80s due to rules/refereeing changes? and now even less rough, in part because the game is more spread out due to the value of trying lots of 3 pointers being widely accepted (probably also other reasons?)

i'm curious if that's roughly right for basketball and also how other sports have fared. i'm guessing there's some similarities, increasing brutality as more money goes on the line, then decreasing tolerance from players and viewers, and maybe decreasing as more elegant edges are found as well

but then like with football, equipment gets better, with all sports player recovery gets better, which all makes brutality more tolerable

im also curious about boxing, and mma
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: sports

Post by Skeletor » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:22 pm

i was thinking about this in relation to ovechkin coming up on gretzky's all time goal record in a few years. did he get beat up more or less over the years compared to gretzky?
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: sports

Post by seathesee » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:35 pm

Crunchums wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:14 am
Crunchums wrote:i know you haven't made the playoffs in forever but you're really gonna trade away a good young player in order to chase 10th? oof
*oof intensifies*
(maybe it will pay off next year though???????)
is this in reference to the kings not making the play in?

i think the trade was fundamentally misunderstood by the public and media at large. i dont care at all that they didnt make the play in, and i like the trade in hindsight even more than i did at the time. we traded a potential future all star for a current all star. we got off buddy hields contract. we got a couple guys which...at least technically make our rotation.

sabonis seems like hes the kind of guy who will stick around if the kings make an effort to improve our competitiveness. i think theres a good shot we get more than just the two years from him if we want them. most importantly, fox looked really good again after we traded haliburton. it was sort of like we got 1/3 of fox in the trade. there was clearly something going on there with haliburton/fox whether it was a mental block or xs and os issues with the two of them.

im optimistic going into next year. i would not be had the tgrade not taken place. the kings needed a major shake up that led to some open ended-ness in outcome. they did not have that just running it back. trading fox would have been preferable, but that wasnt an option. by all indications, foxs value has improved drastically with the trade.

the biggest question with the kings right now is how the coach search will go. picking the right guy has the potential to put them on a twolves/grizzlies trajectory.
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:42 pm

i'm not a super basketball historian, but my understanding is that it's mostly rules changes https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/11-import ... banning-it
specifically
1) they added flagrant foul rules to try and make the game less about beating each other up
2) they got rid of zone defense (a bit more complicated than that but that's the gist) which let defenses play differently which forced offenses to be more dynamic and less "our one big strong guy will physically overpower you" (the "analytics says shoot 3s" part was a subsequent evolution)
3) they changed the rules to limit how physical you could be on defense
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Re: sports

Post by seathesee » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:45 pm

Skeletor wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm anyone have opinions on how different professional sports have evolved in terms of their brutality?

like with basketball, i get the sense that in 50s-60s there's maybe not a lot of physical brutality. then by the 80s there's teams like the pistons whose gameplan involves beating the shit out of you, then in the 90s it's a very in-the-paint game and rough that way, but maybe less rough than the 80s due to rules/refereeing changes? and now even less rough, in part because the game is more spread out due to the value of trying lots of 3 pointers being widely accepted (probably also other reasons?)

i'm curious if that's roughly right for basketball and also how other sports have fared. i'm guessing there's some similarities, increasing brutality as more money goes on the line, then decreasing tolerance from players and viewers, and maybe decreasing as more elegant edges are found as well

but then like with football, equipment gets better, with all sports player recovery gets better, which all makes brutality more tolerable

im also curious about boxing, and mma
i think in almost every sense, american sports have gotten less brutal, with the exception of potentially combat sports because of the rise of MMA over boxing.

your basketball timeline is sort of correct. players used to get in fights all the time, throw punches, etc. on the court, from at least the 60s on. look up the kermit washington/rudy tomjanovich incident as a notable example. the mentality was different. media coverage was different--most basketball games werent even televised back then. basketball players also didnt have the relationships with each other they do now--they didnt come up all playing aau together. they werent friends. they were competitors only, for the most part.

you always hear the 70s-90s era football players talking about how much more violent the game was back then. players literally trying to hurt other players. rules allowing or facilitating violence. etc.

i think the only sense in which you could say sports are more brutal now (ignoring combat sports) are just that bodies are bigger and faster now. theres more potential for injury because of that. this is offset by culture, rules changes, equipment improvements, player relationships changing, media having a microscope on literally everything that happens in sports, business implications, etc.
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:46 pm

the NFL is weird because on the one hand you have the league somewhat successfully trying to legislate big hits out of the game, but on the other hand the fact that the athletes are all bigger and stronger than they were in the past means that every hit is that much more brutal
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:51 pm

sea, i think i am lower on sabonis (and higher on haliburton) than you are
looking at their roster i would guess they'll finish 9 to 12 next year (though of course there's gonna be a whole offseason)
maybe i'm wrong, though
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Re: sports

Post by haplo » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:54 pm

I think football in particular is known to have gotten "worse" as helmet technology improved allowing people to make more reckless plays, but they've been at least mildly attempting to offset that with rule changes.

There are way less fights in hockey than there used to be. There are still goons but not like it was back then. Gretzky and Ovi both had hardly any fights in their career although Ovi is a huge guy and gives out a disproportionately high number of hits relative to other players at his skill level.

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Re: sports

Post by seathesee » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:57 pm

im pretty high on haliburton, but guard redundancy was definitely a thing. davion looked like a solid secondstarter/backup down the stretch. we needed to move assets out of that position. haliburton is great, though. i wish we could have kept him over the other two. sabonis raises the ceiling on the team so much, though.

the roster is fucked right now. we have a glut of bad centers. we need at least one shooter. its hard to tell our potential based on this past year, where fox was dealing with injury/other issues over half the year. id like to see a full season with him and sabonis healthy. if they could add a seth curry-type, i think that would really push them into the competitive sphere. the west is looking a lot rougher next year, though.
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:12 pm

for sure the west will be brutal next year if the clippers and nuggets get their stars back
also now that it's the end of the regular season we can look back on our predictions
viewtopic.php?p=130798#p130798
viewtopic.php?p=130955#p130955
we were both wrong on a lot of things (obviously), but your predictions were definitely better than mine; our biggest disagreements were on the warriors and the lakers and you were right on both
i'm pleased that i correctly called thunder over rockets though
(i was perfect on mavs 4 clippers 8 thunder 14 rockets 15, you were perfect on clippers 8 (getting a standing perfectly right is actually a silly thing to care about but it's still fun))
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Re: sports

Post by seathesee » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:36 pm

looking back is fun. im pretty happy with my lakers take.

the rockets/thunder thing is kind of silly, just because neither team was even trying to win at all the second half of the season (and maybe not even the first half). im not sure we know which is actually better (i know that wasnt the argument exactly). were the thunder better than the rockets or were the rockets just better at tanking? who knows!
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Re: sports

Post by Skeletor » Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:36 pm

seathesee wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:45 pm
Skeletor wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:14 pm anyone have opinions on how different professional sports have evolved in terms of their brutality?

like with basketball, i get the sense that in 50s-60s there's maybe not a lot of physical brutality. then by the 80s there's teams like the pistons whose gameplan involves beating the shit out of you, then in the 90s it's a very in-the-paint game and rough that way, but maybe less rough than the 80s due to rules/refereeing changes? and now even less rough, in part because the game is more spread out due to the value of trying lots of 3 pointers being widely accepted (probably also other reasons?)

i'm curious if that's roughly right for basketball and also how other sports have fared. i'm guessing there's some similarities, increasing brutality as more money goes on the line, then decreasing tolerance from players and viewers, and maybe decreasing as more elegant edges are found as well

but then like with football, equipment gets better, with all sports player recovery gets better, which all makes brutality more tolerable

im also curious about boxing, and mma
i think in almost every sense, american sports have gotten less brutal, with the exception of potentially combat sports because of the rise of MMA over boxing.

your basketball timeline is sort of correct. players used to get in fights all the time, throw punches, etc. on the court, from at least the 60s on. look up the kermit washington/rudy tomjanovich incident as a notable example. the mentality was different. media coverage was different--most basketball games werent even televised back then. basketball players also didnt have the relationships with each other they do now--they didnt come up all playing aau together. they werent friends. they were competitors only, for the most part.

you always hear the 70s-90s era football players talking about how much more violent the game was back then. players literally trying to hurt other players. rules allowing or facilitating violence. etc.

i think the only sense in which you could say sports are more brutal now (ignoring combat sports) are just that bodies are bigger and faster now. theres more potential for injury because of that. this is offset by culture, rules changes, equipment improvements, player relationships changing, media having a microscope on literally everything that happens in sports, business implications, etc.
has boxing itself gotten any more brutal? what about mma, not in relation to boxing but on its own?
wow, [you]. that all sounds terrible. i hope it gets better for you

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Re: sports

Post by seathesee » Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:05 pm

Skeletor wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:36 pm has boxing itself gotten any more brutal? what about mma, not in relation to boxing but on its own?
i dont know much about boxing. my understanding is that the rules are relatively static, and i imagine rule enforcement has gotten better with better technology and more media.

im also far from an expert on mma, but am a little more equipped to discuss it. mma has gotten way less brutal in the past 30 years. the original ufc was essentially based on street fighting and the only rules were, basically, no biting, no eye (I) gouging, and no genitals. now there are a bunch more rules. you cant headbutt now. you cant kick people in the head when theyre on the ground. the referee can call a fight. etc.
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Re: sports

Post by Rylinks » Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:51 pm

i think boxing has less cases of someone getting knocked out and still continuing the fight now

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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:35 pm

nets 40 point 1st quarter; man that was fun to watch
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Re: sports

Post by haplo » Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:28 am

why is every basketball highlight described as "playerx absolutely DESTROYS playery and murders his family and children with brutal domination" and then I watch the clip and its like, the dude dunked one inch higher than the defenseman who was slightly off balance and there was little to not contact.

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Re: sports

Post by Doug » Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:49 am

Fun and nontoxic conflict is missing from people's lives

They should play board games
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

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Re: sports

Post by Rylinks » Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:52 am

they should play forums mafia ur welcome future joke maker

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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:14 pm

haplo wrote:why is every basketball highlight described as "playerx absolutely DESTROYS playery and murders his family and children with brutal domination" and then I watch the clip and its like, the dude dunked one inch higher than the defenseman who was slightly off balance and there was little to not contact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJKe_NNZYo
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:18 pm

u gotta skate

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Re: sports

Post by haplo » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:18 pm

ironically that second clip is exactly what made me write that post

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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:04 pm

the defender was not off balance in that one : 3
i get where you are coming from, but also i wonder how much basketball you have played
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:15 pm

wow celtics nets wow
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Re: sports

Post by haplo » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:57 am

Crunchums wrote:the defender was not off balance in that one : 3
i get where you are coming from, but also i wonder how much basketball you have played
yeah but the two defenders were each coming from the side without any speed so whether they were even there was inconsequential to the play.
but mainly I mean in football when there's a highlight people say "big hit by playerx" but in basketball it's just stupidly exaggerated

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Re: sports

Post by haplo » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:59 am

also I haven't played any basketball because it's a bad sport for people who like bad things

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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:38 am

ok well basketball is great and your opinion is bad, but also i wanted to say that before i played basketball there were a lot of things about it that i thought were just the announcers being dumb (like NFL announcers are) / people being silly about sports, but once i started playing basketball i understood that a lot of it is super legit and also why the culture is the way it is, and one part of that last bit is that when you thwart someone on a basketball court (block their shot, steal from them, etc) it feels super primal and personal
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Re: sports

Post by Rylinks » Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:39 am

this is why zone defense used to be illegal

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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:22 pm

u gotta skate

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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:49 am

Crunchums wrote:wow celtics nets wow
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Re: sports

Post by Crunchums » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:57 am

the nba playoffs are so good
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