Google makes everything worse

Probably what *this* should be called.
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Dantes
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:51 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:58 am yeah as someone who has a very negative view of facebook in general I am still baffled by the reaction to this

if you didn't want to discourage linking to news stories this law was obviously a bad idea!
Counterpoint: Google is working out licensing deals with Australian news sources. The legislation is aimed at two specific companies (Facebook, Google) it is hard to say that it is was obviously a bad idea when it has succeeded in changing the behavior of one of those companies in the way the proposed law intends.
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Rylinks » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:54 pm

Juri wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:47 pm personally i'm rooting for continued florid escalation from both parties of this dispute

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Ashenai » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:17 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:49 pm Recode has a pretty good article on the topic.

Like I said, I'm kind of uncertain about this thing. I think Facebook taking this action, before the law has actually been passed can rightly be described as retaliatory (or bullying), but I'm not certain if they're wrong to do so. I also have some concerns about the idea of an American company pushing the Australian government around, I'm as pro-America as just about anyone and I'd be pretty upset about a foreign company doing something like that to us. I also think Facebook's entire profit model is deeply manipulative and corrosive, and has allowed them to amass a great deal of power that can be used in entirely unethical ways. I'm also worried that this is just a taste of what they could do and that Zuck, who isn't the most ethical of people in the first place, may come to enjoy wielding that power. Also,on general principal, Fuck Facebook.

I realize I'm rambling and meandering here. I have a lot of conflicted thoughts on this and I really don't want to spend a couple of hours writing up something more coherent.
I still don't get it. Is Facebook providing a service to Austrialian news outlets by linking them, or are Austrialian news outlets providing a service to Facebook by giving them news to aggregate? Because the way this works is, the party providing the service is the one that gets paid.

Now, there are arguments for both sides. But what absolutely does not work is going "we're the ones providing the service, pay us for it" and then Facebook goes "okay I actually don't want that, it costs too much" and then everyone going "NO PLEASE WE NEED THIS, YOU'RE BEING A BULLY". Hey, if you need it, then maybe you're not actually the ones providing a service here, or at least not at that price point.

Not wanting to pay for something that you have previously been getting for free is not bullying in any way. That's just normal market behavior.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:22 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:51 pm Counterpoint: Google is working out licensing deals with Australian news sources. The legislation is aimed at two specific companies (Facebook, Google) it is hard to say that it is was obviously a bad idea when it has succeeded in changing the behavior of one of those companies in the way the proposed law intends.
that's why I said "discourage", not "ban" - this law creates a strong incentive against allowing links to stories. it's not surprising that google and facebook had different reactions, since surfacing news links in search results is more fundamental to what google does than letting people post news links is to what facebook does

like, some platforms have systems set up to let you post some copyrighted material (by sending ad revenue to the licenseholder or whatever). is it bad if other platforms won't let you post the same material? even though they would if it wasn't copyrighted?

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Rylinks » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:26 pm

im doing my part

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:31 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:17 pm I still don't get it. Is Facebook providing a service to Austrialian news outlets by linking them, or are Austrialian news outlets providing a service to Facebook by giving them news to aggregate? Because the way this works is, the party providing the service is the one that gets paid.

Now, there are arguments for both sides. But what absolutely does not work is going "we're the ones providing the service, pay us for it" and then Facebook goes "okay I actually don't want that, it costs too much" and then everyone going "NO PLEASE WE NEED THIS, YOU'RE BEING A BULLY". Hey, if you need it, then maybe you're not actually the ones providing a service here, or at least not at that price point.

Not wanting to pay for something that you have previously been getting for free is not bullying in any way. That's just normal market behavior.
I think what they believe is that the service actually is worth it to facebook, but they're choosing to go with cutting off links instead because they don't want to encourage other governments to do the same thing

so the australian reaction is inconsistent with a theory that facebook is doing something harmful to media organisations by allowing links to their stories to be posted for free, but to be fair it makes more sense if the theory is that it's socially beneficial to set up a copyright-like system for links and use that to fund news. still having a lot of trouble seeing it as outrageous that a company decided they didn't want their users to be able to put them on the hook for licensing fees whenever they wanted, though

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:17 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:49 pm Recode has a pretty good article on the topic.

Like I said, I'm kind of uncertain about this thing. I think Facebook taking this action, before the law has actually been passed can rightly be described as retaliatory (or bullying), but I'm not certain if they're wrong to do so. I also have some concerns about the idea of an American company pushing the Australian government around, I'm as pro-America as just about anyone and I'd be pretty upset about a foreign company doing something like that to us. I also think Facebook's entire profit model is deeply manipulative and corrosive, and has allowed them to amass a great deal of power that can be used in entirely unethical ways. I'm also worried that this is just a taste of what they could do and that Zuck, who isn't the most ethical of people in the first place, may come to enjoy wielding that power. Also,on general principal, Fuck Facebook.

I realize I'm rambling and meandering here. I have a lot of conflicted thoughts on this and I really don't want to spend a couple of hours writing up something more coherent.
I still don't get it. Is Facebook providing a service to Austrialian news outlets by linking them, or are Austrialian news outlets providing a service to Facebook by giving them news to aggregate? Because the way this works is, the party providing the service is the one that gets paid.

Now, there are arguments for both sides. But what absolutely does not work is going "we're the ones providing the service, pay us for it" and then Facebook goes "okay I actually don't want that, it costs too much" and then everyone going "NO PLEASE WE NEED THIS, YOU'RE BEING A BULLY". Hey, if you need it, then maybe you're not actually the ones providing a service here, or at least not at that price point.

Not wanting to pay for something that you have previously been getting for free is not bullying in any way. That's just normal market behavior.
It's not quite that simple. Facebook argues that it is providing a service that directs traffic to those sites. Some publisher (larger) argue that Facebook is serving part of their content and selling advertising against that. They further argue that the service is little more than theft as it suppresses traffic that would otherwise go to their sites. Some publishers (smaller) are appreciative of the additional traffic that goes their way because their reach is extended by Facebook.

And yeah, you can make the argument that Facebook is just making the determination that it doesn't want to pay the cost (and it clearly does not), but cutting off the 'service' before the law is passed (reminder that the law gives the parties 90 days to come to agreeable terms) undercuts that. It's pretty transparently an attempt to rally consumer sentiment against the Australian government.

Their are a lot of ways to view this, and a lot of grey at play here.

The one thing I am certain is unarguably true, is that Facebook has become one of the largest companies in human history by monetizing content that it did not create.
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:47 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:31 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:17 pm I still don't get it. Is Facebook providing a service to Austrialian news outlets by linking them, or are Austrialian news outlets providing a service to Facebook by giving them news to aggregate? Because the way this works is, the party providing the service is the one that gets paid.

Now, there are arguments for both sides. But what absolutely does not work is going "we're the ones providing the service, pay us for it" and then Facebook goes "okay I actually don't want that, it costs too much" and then everyone going "NO PLEASE WE NEED THIS, YOU'RE BEING A BULLY". Hey, if you need it, then maybe you're not actually the ones providing a service here, or at least not at that price point.

Not wanting to pay for something that you have previously been getting for free is not bullying in any way. That's just normal market behavior.
I think what they believe is that the service actually is worth it to facebook, but they're choosing to go with cutting off links instead because they don't want to encourage other governments to do the same thing

so the australian reaction is inconsistent with a theory that facebook is doing something harmful to media organisations by allowing links to their stories to be posted for free, but to be fair it makes more sense if the theory is that it's socially beneficial to set up a copyright-like system for links and use that to fund news. still having a lot of trouble seeing it as outrageous that a company decided they didn't want their users to be able to put them on the hook for licensing fees whenever they wanted, though
While I agree with that sentiment, it's the timing of the action that suggests more is at play here.
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm It's not quite that simple. Facebook argues that it is providing a service that directs traffic to those sites. Some publisher (larger) argue that Facebook is serving part of their content and selling advertising against that. They further argue that the service is little more than theft as it suppresses traffic that would otherwise go to their sites.
then they must be glad that facebook has stopped this nefarious behaviour even earlier than they were legally required to!
Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm The one thing I am certain is unarguably true, is that Facebook has become one of the largest companies in human history by monetizing content that it did not create.
I don't think this really signifies much of anything. a lot of businesses provide services which come down to "letting users give content to each other" or "pointing people to external resources". such services can be very useful so it's not surprising that the biggest one of them would be a very big company

(again, I am dubious about facebook for a lot of reasons but the fact that their business is built around user-generated content and external links seems totally fine)

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Ashenai » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm

It's a negotiation. Like every negotiation, the party that's less desperate for the deal is the one that gets to set the terms. Here, it very much looks like that's Facebook.

If Australia can't afford to have Facebook walk away, then they have no leverage. Their bluff has been called, and now they get to eat the L.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:26 pm im doing my part

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You MONSTER
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:57 pm

I'm reporting all of you as suspected australians until I see proof to the contrary

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm If Australia can't afford to have Facebook walk away, then they have no leverage. Their bluff has been called, and now they get to eat the L.
I don't think Australia is going to blink on this.
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:59 pm

Jeb Bush 2012 wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm (again, I am dubious about facebook for a lot of reasons but the fact that their business is built around user-generated content and external links seems totally fine)
Their business is built around selling people, but that's an entirely different conversation.
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:59 pm

no that's slavery which was already illegal in australia afaik

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Ashenai » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:03 pm

Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm If Australia can't afford to have Facebook walk away, then they have no leverage. Their bluff has been called, and now they get to eat the L.
I don't think Australia is going to blink on this.
That's also a possible outcome! But it seems like Facebook is okay with that as well (unless they are the ones bluffing, which I suppose is possible!)

I hate the entire click economy thing: advertisements make money by providing negative value. So anything that disrupts it is ultimately fine by me.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Dantes » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:08 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:03 pm
Dantes wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:58 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm If Australia can't afford to have Facebook walk away, then they have no leverage. Their bluff has been called, and now they get to eat the L.
I don't think Australia is going to blink on this.
That's also a possible outcome! But it seems like Facebook is okay with that as well (unless they are the ones bluffing, which I suppose is possible!)

I hate the entire click economy thing: advertisements make money by providing negative value. So anything that disrupts it is ultimately fine by me.
I think Facebook is more likely to fold on this, assuming the content is actually more valuable to them than they claim (an assumption I am willing to make, I wouldn't trust Zuck if he said it was raining outside). My understanding is that a lot of other countries are looking at this to see how it plays out. If Facebook can't get Australia to change, Facebook is going to have to start negotiating to maintain access to this content or costs are going to be unilaterally imposed on them by all sorts of different regulatory regimes.
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Rylinks » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:16 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:56 pm It's a negotiation. Like every negotiation, the party that's less desperate for the deal is the one that gets to set the terms. Here, it very much looks like that's Facebook.

If Australia can't afford to have Facebook walk away, then they have no leverage. Their bluff has been called, and now they get to eat the L.
Australia can straight up expropriate facebook so it seems like they have leverage to me

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Ashenai » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:54 pm

That's just power, not leverage. Power only becomes leverage with the (political) will to apply it, which seems largely absent.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by haplo » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:56 am

I searched for "Lidl" on Google to figure out what it was, didn't click any results, closed it, then opened Facebook and it had a Lidl ad. That all happened in about the span of 20 seconds. I didn't realize it could happen that fast.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Shiny Days » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:58 am

and so i guess wanted to doom us all also

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by haplo » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:59 am

congrats on your Lidl ads for anyone reading this thread, probably

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Crunchums » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:12 am

haplo wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:56 am I searched for "Lidl" on Google to figure out what it was, didn't click any results, closed it, then opened Facebook and it had a Lidl ad. That all happened in about the span of 20 seconds. I didn't realize it could happen that fast.
it's called "instant retargeting" :skink:


(or at least that's what the company i used to work at called it)
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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by haplo » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:01 am

speaking of targeted ads, saw this oddly personal one on linkedin today

you could argue "for games like Fortnite" is generic messaging anyone gets, but "make fortnite season 6 the best one yet" is definitely on purpose
linkedin.jpg
linkedin.jpg (67.36 KiB) Viewed 426 times

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by pterrus » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:07 am

Wow, that is pretty specific.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Khaos » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:51 am

is this the "i need computer help thread"? i cannot for the life of me connect me Logitech F710 to my computer :/ i feel like i've tried everything

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Shiny Days » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:57 am

Khaos wrote:is this the "i need computer help thread"? i cannot for the life of me connect me Logitech F710 to my computer :/ i feel like i've tried everything
are you getting an error?

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Khaos » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:46 am

it just doesnt connect. i used to be able to temporarily fix it by opening device manager and updating the driver manually to an xbox 360 controller driver but now it doesnt even let me do that. it just goes, updating driver... forever

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by pterrus » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:14 pm

Khaos wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:51 am is this the "i need computer help thread"?
No, that's video game news.

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Re: Google makes everything worse

Post by Shiny Days » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:17 pm

Khaos wrote:it just doesnt connect. i used to be able to temporarily fix it by opening device manager and updating the driver manually to an xbox 360 controller driver but now it doesnt even let me do that. it just goes, updating driver... forever
is there something else you can try to connect it to / have tried to connect it to and it works fine there?

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