slatestarcodex

Probably what *this* should be called.
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Tue May 17, 2022 1:56 pm

Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pmBoth men and women have a wide range of behaviors, from very nice to total assholes.
Well at least here there is a double standard. A woman who is openly a total asshole gets labels applied to her and it's not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, we kind of admire men who are assholes, they get TV shows and political offices.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Rylinks » Tue May 17, 2022 2:00 pm

Luna wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:59 pm maybe they weren't a teenage girl themself
correct

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Tue May 17, 2022 2:51 pm

pterrus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:56 pm
Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pmBoth men and women have a wide range of behaviors, from very nice to total assholes.
Well at least here there is a double standard. A woman who is openly a total asshole gets labels applied to her and it's not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, we kind of admire men who are assholes, they get TV shows and political offices.
You're talking about celebrities, which is a world of its own, because we pick our celebrities to match and reinforce the stories we tell ourselves. So they're always going to be caricatures, in a way. A female celebrity has to personify a female trope, a male one has to personify a male trope. That said, there are absolutely female tropes that allow for assholish behavior as well, which is how Paris Hilton, the Kardashians etc. got to be celebrities (and got TV shows).

In any case, most successful people aren't celebrities, and success for most people isn't measured by TV shows or political appointments. Women can be ruthless, powerful and successful as well, you just don't hear about them, because they don't fit any fable, their lives aren't the stories we like, and so we ignore them. Nobody has ever heard of Phebe Novakovic. Rest assured that she is highly intelligent, she is an asshole, and it is debatable whether Trump was ever more powerful than her, at any point in his life.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by seathesee » Tue May 17, 2022 3:00 pm

pterrus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:56 pm
Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pmBoth men and women have a wide range of behaviors, from very nice to total assholes.
Well at least here there is a double standard. A woman who is openly a total asshole gets labels applied to her and it's not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, we kind of admire men who are assholes, they get TV shows and political offices.
i think this is a dated take. "girlboss," "yass queen," "bad bitch," etc. are all positive female versions of the glorified male "asshole" figure in popular culture.

politically, aoc is a pretty good example of a politician whos built a career on not being polite and calling out those who deserve it in the eyes of her base.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Rylinks » Tue May 17, 2022 3:05 pm

Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:51 pm
pterrus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:56 pm
Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pmBoth men and women have a wide range of behaviors, from very nice to total assholes.
Well at least here there is a double standard. A woman who is openly a total asshole gets labels applied to her and it's not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, we kind of admire men who are assholes, they get TV shows and political offices.
You're talking about celebrities, which is a world of its own, because we pick our celebrities to match and reinforce the stories we tell ourselves. So they're always going to be caricatures, in a way. A female celebrity has to personify a female trope, a male one has to personify a male trope. That said, there are absolutely female tropes that allow for assholish behavior as well, which is how Paris Hilton, the Kardashians etc. got to be celebrities (and got TV shows).

In any case, most successful people aren't celebrities, and success for most people isn't measured by TV shows or political appointments. Women can be ruthless, powerful and successful as well, you just don't hear about them, because they don't fit any fable, their lives aren't the stories we like, and so we ignore them. Nobody has ever heard of Phebe Novakovic. Rest assured that she is highly intelligent, she is an asshole, and it is debatable whether Trump was ever more powerful than her, at any point in his life.
what makes you say that novakovic is an asshole

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Tue May 17, 2022 3:14 pm

seathesee wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:00 pm i think this is a dated take. "girlboss," "yass queen," "bad bitch," etc. are all positive female versions of the glorified male "asshole" figure in popular culture.
Hm, the way I look at this is women are trying to make fetch happen and it's not really working. Girlboss is already kind of in cringe territory And isn't yass queen more of a gay/drag thing than something a woman unironically says to a woman?

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Tue May 17, 2022 3:14 pm

Rylinks wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:05 pm
Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:51 pm
pterrus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:56 pm
Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pmBoth men and women have a wide range of behaviors, from very nice to total assholes.
Well at least here there is a double standard. A woman who is openly a total asshole gets labels applied to her and it's not socially acceptable. Meanwhile, we kind of admire men who are assholes, they get TV shows and political offices.
You're talking about celebrities, which is a world of its own, because we pick our celebrities to match and reinforce the stories we tell ourselves. So they're always going to be caricatures, in a way. A female celebrity has to personify a female trope, a male one has to personify a male trope. That said, there are absolutely female tropes that allow for assholish behavior as well, which is how Paris Hilton, the Kardashians etc. got to be celebrities (and got TV shows).

In any case, most successful people aren't celebrities, and success for most people isn't measured by TV shows or political appointments. Women can be ruthless, powerful and successful as well, you just don't hear about them, because they don't fit any fable, their lives aren't the stories we like, and so we ignore them. Nobody has ever heard of Phebe Novakovic. Rest assured that she is highly intelligent, she is an asshole, and it is debatable whether Trump was ever more powerful than her, at any point in his life.
what makes you say that novakovic is an asshole
I remember reading some interview with her where she was criticized about GD's arms shipments to... I think Saudi Arabia? I thought she was an asshole based on that. Not a Trump-style performative asshole for angry idiots, though, more like a smart, contemptuous asshole.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by seathesee » Tue May 17, 2022 3:39 pm

pterrus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:14 pm
seathesee wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:00 pm i think this is a dated take. "girlboss," "yass queen," "bad bitch," etc. are all positive female versions of the glorified male "asshole" figure in popular culture.
Hm, the way I look at this is women are trying to make fetch happen and it's not really working. Girlboss is already kind of in cringe territory And isn't yass queen more of a gay/drag thing than something a woman unironically says to a woman?
i see this as sort of a male-centric viewpoint. i agree its a little cringe. i think all this stuff is sort of cringe. i think "women" as a sort of awkward grouping of a lot of diverse people personality types into a hive mind dont find it cringe at large. women are over half the population. i dont think women glorify the male "asshole" figure--its mostly men. we all identify with people like us who take no shit and do what they want to some degree.

wrt "yass queen" its definitely something said unironically and embraced by women. i see tweets/posts/whatever from accounts with female profile pictures saying that all the time.

really, i feel like what you said is sort of regurgitating a dogmatic statement that was probably true decades ago, but the world is changing. a lot of gender talk is reacting to a state of the world that hasnt existed in a while. on certain platforms, like reddit for example, id argue that the truth of your statement has pretty much flipped and asshole women figures are at large more glorified than male asshole figures.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Tue May 17, 2022 4:22 pm

But to paraphrase Dave Chapelle, reddit isn't a real place! Workplaces are real places and at least the woman who wrote that article seems to think the old ways are still relevant. And I certainly know what my wife would say on the matter.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by seathesee » Tue May 17, 2022 4:38 pm

pterrus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:22 pm But to paraphrase Dave Chapelle, reddit isn't a real place! Workplaces are real places and at least the woman who wrote that article seems to think the old ways are still relevant. And I certainly know what my wife would say on the matter.
you said "tv shows and political offices" and i was reacting to that.

as to the workplace, though, is anyone glorifying male "asshole" types in that setting? does anyone like an asshole boss, man or woman? does anyone like an asshole co-worker? does your wife like male asshole figures at her workplace and not female asshole figures? are you/your wife not seeing women getting promotions and high paying career options if they want them? i know in the legal space, im seeing way more female attorneys, partners, owners of law firms than a decade ago.

i think online spaces like reddit are a good place to sample cultural trends and youth trends. these tend to forecast the future to some degree. i dont disagree they are very different than meatspace, but if you cant look back at what someone like marmalade was posting a decade ago and see that it was some indicator of where popular culture was trending i dont know what to say.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by seathesee » Tue May 17, 2022 4:48 pm

the last four judges appointed to the superior court in my county have been women. ability to be an asshole is practically part of the job description.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Tue May 17, 2022 4:55 pm

pterrus wrote:And I certainly know what my wife would say on the matter.
what would your wife say on the matter?
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Tue May 17, 2022 5:00 pm

Okay the TV and politics thing was a bad point, those are at least as unreal as reddit. And it's good to hear places outside of tech are making progress.

But on the other hand, my friend discord is full of women in tech and I guarantee they would tell you the patriarchy is holding them down. But of course they would say that.

Making progress but not there yet is probably closest to the truth.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Luna » Tue May 17, 2022 10:30 pm

pterrus wrote:Okay the TV and politics thing was a bad point, those are at least as unreal as reddit. And it's good to hear places outside of tech are making progress.

But on the other hand, my friend discord is full of women in tech and I guarantee they would tell you the patriarchy is holding them down. But of course they would say that.

Making progress but not there yet is probably closest to the truth.
maybe they should organize

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Doug » Tue May 17, 2022 11:10 pm

Luna wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:30 pm
pterrus wrote:Okay the TV and politics thing was a bad point, those are at least as unreal as reddit. And it's good to hear places outside of tech are making progress.

But on the other hand, my friend discord is full of women in tech and I guarantee they would tell you the patriarchy is holding them down. But of course they would say that.

Making progress but not there yet is probably closest to the truth.
maybe they should organize
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Jeb Bush 2012 » Tue May 17, 2022 11:58 pm

Ashenai wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:51 pm You're talking about celebrities, which is a world of its own, because we pick our celebrities to match and reinforce the stories we tell ourselves. So they're always going to be caricatures, in a way. A female celebrity has to personify a female trope, a male one has to personify a male trope. That said, there are absolutely female tropes that allow for assholish behavior as well, which is how Paris Hilton, the Kardashians etc. got to be celebrities (and got TV shows).

In any case, most successful people aren't celebrities, and success for most people isn't measured by TV shows or political appointments. Women can be ruthless, powerful and successful as well, you just don't hear about them, because they don't fit any fable, their lives aren't the stories we like, and so we ignore them. Nobody has ever heard of Phebe Novakovic. Rest assured that she is highly intelligent, she is an asshole, and it is debatable whether Trump was ever more powerful than her, at any point in his life.
it is not remotely debatable, even a fairly ineffective president is vastly more powerful than any CEO, let alone the CEO of the 83rd largest company in the country

(on the actual point at issue, arguing that female CEOs behave similarly to male CEOs isn't really evidence against the claim that women are socialised to act in "non CEO-like" ways to some extent, since women are very much a minority of CEOs! in fact it's one of the reasons traditionally proposed for why the latter might be the case)

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Tue May 24, 2022 7:16 pm

u gotta skate

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Tue May 24, 2022 7:44 pm

lmao

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Tue May 24, 2022 7:53 pm

"I really like this guy, but when I inspect that emotion further I find it has a flavor of “I could fix him”, which I’m told is not a good way to choose one’s relationship partners or governors."

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Wed May 25, 2022 3:35 pm

Great article. I too have a lot of respect for crazy people willing to try shit out. That's America, baby. It's how you get the Wright brothers and stuff. Also probably why I'm less down on Elon Musk than most people.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Wed May 25, 2022 5:10 pm

pterrus wrote:Great article. I too have a lot of respect for crazy people willing to try shit out. That's America, baby. It's how you get the Wright brothers and stuff. Also probably why I'm less down on Elon Musk than most people.
the conclusion is amusing though
1) the american dream is primarily expressed through immigrants, because most normal americans have had it beaten out of them by the system
2) none of these people have a realistic chance of winning (i.e. beating the system)
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Wed May 25, 2022 6:12 pm

I don't think the American dream has been beaten out of me by the system, it just so happens I don't have time to do things like run for office because I am a wage slave and also very lazy. If Grak can be mayor while raising 4 kids, so can you; it's realistic if you're willing to put in the time.

I think a lot of these people could run at a local level and actually win (and some have). The major mistake they are making is reaching too high before they have any political capital.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Wed May 25, 2022 7:16 pm

mm i guess probably it is more like there's levels and usually you've got to do a lower level before you can do a higher level
like none of these people are going to win an election to become governor, but maybe if they first were a mayor somewhere (which like you said is doable) then they would actually have a chance
and then the more realistic filter is that holding a position that is beyond local (i.e. statewide or federal) actually kinda sucks and so there's a big selection bias on the people who try
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Wed May 25, 2022 7:16 pm

Until a man is twenty-five he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the governor. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Columbian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out homelessness. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being the governor. Hiro used to feel that way, too, but then he ran into Gavin Newsom. In a way, this is liberating. He no longer has to worry about being the governor. The position is taken.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Wed May 25, 2022 7:19 pm

nice
(that is a tweaked version of a quote from Snow Crash, for people who weren't aware)
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Wed May 25, 2022 7:22 pm

pterrus wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 3:35 pm Great article. I too have a lot of respect for crazy people willing to try shit out. That's America, baby. It's how you get the Wright brothers and stuff. Also probably why I'm less down on Elon Musk than most people.
I used to like Elon Musk more than I do now. He has always been very weird, which I dig, but he fundamentally doesn't give a shit about other people, which is not great. The "pedo guy" incident was where I first saw that clearly, and nothing he's done since has made me think I was wrong.

Slatestarcodex guy, on the other hand, is great and I like him a lot, even when I think he's wrong and/or crazy.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Wed May 25, 2022 7:33 pm

Elon creeps me out in the same way Mark Zuckerberg does, actually.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Wed May 25, 2022 9:54 pm

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/i ... nse-of-the
i thought section 8 was insightful (and it stands alone if you want to read just it and not the whole article)
it’s definitely true that mankind will not be free until the last admissions officer is strangled with the entrails of the last New York Times journalist.
lol
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Wed May 25, 2022 9:59 pm

I still remember a patient who asked me if I could cure his anxiety within a week. I told him absolutely not - medications take a few weeks to even kick in, and managing anxiety can be a lifelong process - and why did he need a cure in a week anyway? He said he was an inspirational speaker on the topic “How I Overcame My Anxiety”, and he had a speech scheduled next week, but was too anxious to work on it. I think about this person often.
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by seathesee » Wed May 25, 2022 11:35 pm

Ashenai wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:22 pm he fundamentally doesn't give a shit about other people
what is the basis for this judgment?
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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