slatestarcodex

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:43 pm

Ashenai wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:18 pm
Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:25 pm oh well what if i'm a dictator and i'm choosing between actions that lead to these two worlds, but like the answer is hey stop being a dictator who messes with peoples' lives like that
my response to that is that there are better ways of being moral than making sure you're maximally powerless and therefore innocent by default
that seems like a weird vector to engage with my point on. if you were locked into a full-body-confinement suit and couldn't move or speak or take any action and you're just sitting there with tubes keeping you running and you have no control over this then yeah i suppose you now have no more actions that can be morally blameworthy going forward? but i assume you mean power in a different sense, in which case i would say that being powerless in that sense doesn't make you innocent. it doesn't take any power to be rude or polite so someone or whatever
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:44 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
What if I know what an eigenstate is, but I don't really know what an eigenstate is?

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Doug » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:45 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
Do I have to bring up refrigerators again
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Doug » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:46 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:40 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:50 pm
Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:25 pm morality is about the trade-offs between your utility and the utility of others; which of these worlds is better is not a moral question. and yeah obv you can jerry-rig it like oh well what if i'm a dictator and i'm choosing between actions that lead to these two worlds, but like the answer is hey stop being a dictator who messes with peoples' lives like that
Goddamn it, Jerry
i wasn't sure what to use exactly https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ge-history but i went with jerry-rigged because "jury-rigged" seems easily conflated with rigging juries, which is a completely different thing
Haha no I wasn't reacting to it like it was wrong or anything -- it's just a phrase I find funny, like, poor Jerry getting blamed for things
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:46 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
eigenstate my preferences just fine
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:46 pm

Crunchums wrote:
Ashenai wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:23 pm (Every time you have a meaningful choice, you're always choosing between actions that lead to two different worlds.)
yes, but there's a difference between two different worlds based on what action you choose vs. two different worlds compared in a thought experiment. the latter is not a moral question! (it's an axiological one)
i don't see why an axiological question can't also be a moral question? in fact it seems like they would be a subset

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Doug » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:46 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:46 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
eigenstate my preferences just fine
:wub:
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:47 pm

Doug wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:46 pm
Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:40 pm
Doug wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:50 pm
Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:25 pm morality is about the trade-offs between your utility and the utility of others; which of these worlds is better is not a moral question. and yeah obv you can jerry-rig it like oh well what if i'm a dictator and i'm choosing between actions that lead to these two worlds, but like the answer is hey stop being a dictator who messes with peoples' lives like that
Goddamn it, Jerry
i wasn't sure what to use exactly https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ge-history but i went with jerry-rigged because "jury-rigged" seems easily conflated with rigging juries, which is a completely different thing
Haha no I wasn't reacting to it like it was wrong or anything -- it's just a phrase I find funny, like, poor Jerry getting blamed for things
oh i got that and i also find that amusing; i was just posting. shufflepants
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:47 pm

pterrus wrote:
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
What if I know what an eigenstate is, but I don't really know what an eigenstate is?
whenever i try to transform myself into someone who knows what an eigenstate is, it doesn't do anything

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:49 pm

Khaos wrote:
Crunchums wrote:
Ashenai wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:23 pm (Every time you have a meaningful choice, you're always choosing between actions that lead to two different worlds.)
yes, but there's a difference between two different worlds based on what action you choose vs. two different worlds compared in a thought experiment. the latter is not a moral question! (it's an axiological one)
i don't see why an axiological question can't also be a moral question? in fact it seems like they would be a subset
they can be; like you said it's a subset. but "which of these two hypothetical worlds, one where X people all have utility A or one where Y people all have utility B, is better" is not (a moral question)
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:49 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:43 pm
Ashenai wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:18 pm
Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:25 pm oh well what if i'm a dictator and i'm choosing between actions that lead to these two worlds, but like the answer is hey stop being a dictator who messes with peoples' lives like that
my response to that is that there are better ways of being moral than making sure you're maximally powerless and therefore innocent by default
that seems like a weird vector to engage with my point on. if you were locked into a full-body-confinement suit and couldn't move or speak or take any action and you're just sitting there with tubes keeping you running and you have no control over this then yeah i suppose you now have no more actions that can be morally blameworthy going forward? but i assume you mean power in a different sense, in which case i would say that being powerless in that sense doesn't make you innocent. it doesn't take any power to be rude or polite so someone or whatever
You implied that the power to choose between actions leading to two different worlds (that would impact other people differently, not just yourself) is being a dictator (a bad thing). I'm saying that most people have that power (an easy example is by making political donations or campaigning), and it's fine, even though it certainly is "messing with peoples' lives", if you want to see it from that perspective.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:50 pm

Khaos wrote: whenever i try to transform myself into someone who knows what an eigenstate is, it doesn't do anything
When Khaos woke up one morning from unsettling dreams, he found himself unchanged in his bed.
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 pm

Crunchums wrote: they can be; like you said it's a subset. but "which of these two hypothetical worlds, one where X people all have utility A or one where Y people all have utility B, is better" is not (a moral question)
if you could push a magic button that yadayada seems like it is though!

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 pm

Ashenai wrote:You implied that the power to choose between actions leading to two different worlds (that would impact other people differently, not just yourself) is being a dictator (a bad thing). I'm saying that most people have that power (an easy example is by making political donations or campaigning), and it's fine, even though it certainly is "messing with peoples' lives", if you want to see it from that perspective.
i was using dictator in a specific sense of like the fascist kind. i'm trying to preempt the counterargument of "actually that thought experiment is a moral question because what if i was some crazy powerful universal dictator who had the power to shape the world into either of those two possibilities"
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 pm

Khaos wrote:
Crunchums wrote: they can be; like you said it's a subset. but "which of these two hypothetical worlds, one where X people all have utility A or one where Y people all have utility B, is better" is not (a moral question)
if you could push a magic button that yadayada seems like it is though!
see? lol
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Ashenai » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 pm

oh. then nevermind

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 pm

i was saying axiological questions are a subset of moral questions, not vice verse

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 pm

vise versa? or is this is an eggcorn

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Doug » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:54 pm

Moral answers create moral questions. Without moral answers, there are no moral questions and you just do whatever you want
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:54 pm

probably better if i just go one level up and say that i think X-utilitarianism (where X = "total" or "average" or whatever) is the wrong last-level-foundational framework for morality (contractualism imo)
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:54 pm

Crunchums wrote:
Khaos wrote:
Crunchums wrote: they can be; like you said it's a subset. but "which of these two hypothetical worlds, one where X people all have utility A or one where Y people all have utility B, is better" is not (a moral question)
if you could push a magic button that yadayada seems like it is though!
see? lol
so is the moral answer (in your opinion) to leave the world unchanged because you shouldn't have that much power?

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:55 pm

Khaos wrote:i was saying axiological questions are a subset of moral questions, not vice verse
ok then i am confused, or maybe this is just a restatement of the original disagreement, because in my head it only makes sense the other way around
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:56 pm

Crunchums wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:50 pm
Khaos wrote: whenever i try to transform myself into someone who knows what an eigenstate is, it doesn't do anything
When Khaos woke up one morning from unsettling dreams, he found himself unchanged in his bed.
When Falke woke up one morning from unsettling dreams, he found himself changed into ein fliedermaus by Eisenstein, not to be be confused with eigenstate.

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:56 pm

Khaos wrote:
Crunchums wrote:
Khaos wrote:
Crunchums wrote: they can be; like you said it's a subset. but "which of these two hypothetical worlds, one where X people all have utility A or one where Y people all have utility B, is better" is not (a moral question)
if you could push a magic button that yadayada seems like it is though!
see? lol
so is the moral answer (in your opinion) to leave the world unchanged because you shouldn't have that much power?
yes, unless i guess you're making a pareto improvement
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:57 pm

Crunchums wrote:
Khaos wrote:i was saying axiological questions are a subset of moral questions, not vice verse
ok then i am confused, or maybe this is just a restatement of the original disagreement, because in my head it only makes sense the other way around

ok maybe you're right. and that's the tea

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:58 pm

Crunchums wrote:yes, unless i guess you're making a pareto improvement
ok this makes sense i guess

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Crunchums » Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:05 pm

Crunchums wrote:yes, unless i guess you're making a pareto improvement
and to be clear i think it's fuzzier than "any (non-pareto improvement) change of this nature is morally wrong"
like, should i press a button that would make it so peoples' eyelashes never get stuck in their eyes (and somehow this is done in a way with no negative unintended consequences)
well maybe you could claim that this is a pareto improvement, but suppose there's one guy who is like actually i relish when that happens, please don't press that button
personally i'm pressing that button, because [contractualism => i think most people would want that button pressed, etc]
but part of both the appeal and downside of contractualism is that (unlike X-utilitarianism) you can't hypothetically go out and measure everyone's utility delta and get an objective answer of whether your action was "good"
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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Rylinks » Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:07 pm

pterrus wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:44 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
What if I know what an eigenstate is, but I don't really know what an eigenstate is?
if you know the relevant QM postulate and a few examples of what that means in practice that suffices

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by Khaos » Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:11 pm

Crunchums wrote:
Crunchums wrote:yes, unless i guess you're making a pareto improvement
and to be clear i think it's fuzzier than "any (non-pareto improvement) change of this nature is morally wrong"
like, should i press a button that would make it so peoples' eyelashes never get stuck in their eyes (and somehow this is done in a way with no negative unintended consequences)
well maybe you could claim that this is a pareto improvement, but suppose there's one guy who is like actually i relish when that happens, please don't press that button
personally i'm pressing that button, because [contractualism => i think most people would want that button pressed, etc]
but part of both the appeal and downside of contractualism is that (unlike X-utilitarianism) you can't hypothetically go out and measure everyone's utility delta and get an objective answer of whether your action was "good"
this all checks out for me

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Re: slatestarcodex

Post by pterrus » Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:12 pm

Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:07 pm
pterrus wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:44 pm
Rylinks wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:32 pm new forum rule: no posting about quantum mechanics unless you know what an eigenstate is
What if I know what an eigenstate is, but I don't really know what an eigenstate is?
if you know the relevant QM postulate and a few examples of what that means in practice that suffices
Well fuck

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