It's Videogames

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Rylinks » Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:34 pm

Juri wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:26 pmnice club, lady

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:36 pm

Seriously, a lot of love has gone into this game. The map is jammed full of fun little stuff to discover, the NPCs and party members have their own personalities that don't revolve around "oh <playername>, you are so cool and special, <playername>", and the plot is interesting enough to keep my interest.

The combat is also very cool! They leaned heavily into the theme of elemental interactions, and awareness of what's going on and how you can exploit it with elemental trickery is very important.

This ranges from simple stuff (some enemies having wooden shields that protect them annoyingly well, but hitting the shield with a fire attack will burn it up) to more complex mastery of the system (hitting a wet enemy with an electric attack will make them Electro-Charged, which is a damage-over-time with ministuns, and any further electric damage taken by an Electro-Charged opponent will chain to other Electro-Charged opponents). There's a lot of strategy involved!

And you are just as vulnerable: like Barbara is my healer, she can throw out a healing aura that restores a lot of health over about 15 seconds. But she's a water mage, and the aura itself will also activate 4 brief ticks of Wet on anyone inside. Which is normally not an issue, but when I was fighting an ice mage, it very much was, since his cold fields (that normally just slow the character) instead interacted with the Wet to freeze my dude solid.

Spoiler!
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:27 pm

I'm getting my gliding license! :morph:

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Starprintsky » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:25 am

Ashenai wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:36 pm
Spoiler!
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The system could very well be super cool but this image just makes me irritated

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:02 pm

I've been listening to the Genshin Impact OST while working (despite not playing). It's quite nice.

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Doug » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:42 pm

I made a map of Manifold Garden, in Visio

It's totally spoilery
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Shiny Days » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:42 am


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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Doug » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:02 am

OK now here is my map of Manifold Garden, zoomed out so far that it pretty much doesn't spoil it because you can't read it, although I put it in a spoiler tag anyway


Spoiler!
Manifold Garden Map Zoomed Out so Far that You Can't Read It.png
Manifold Garden Map Zoomed Out so Far that You Can't Read It.png (65.73 KiB) Viewed 595 times


And here you see the work I've just started on Super Map


Spoiler!
Super Map the Enphotoing.png
Super Map the Enphotoing.png (129.03 KiB) Viewed 595 times


As you see, for Super Map, I will have to take a screen shot of every place in the game. Also, Super Map does not tell you how to get anywhere

Also also, that is a 10 percent zoom of Super Map -- it will be gigantic
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Juri » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:00 pm

I look forward to playing Manifold Garden so that I understand all this!
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54 pm

i put some time into genshin impact and there are definitely a lot of nice things about it, but it is not a good game right now. its not a good gacha game. id even argue thats its not that great for a gacha game. im pretty amazed at the amount of good press its gotten thus far, and i have to think most people writing those articles did not get to the dragon fight (which should have been epic, but was actually pretty dumb and not at all fun or even skill testing).
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Shiny Days » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:07 am

a lot of people seem pretty unhappy with the resin system. i haven't interacted with it, so i couldnt say, but, uh, i remember spiral knights having the mist thing and honestly it was pretty great. i wouldn't really argue for a stupid system to exist in a game and especially for the sake of / it only existing to get people to spend money to get past it or whatever, but, like, it was so nearly perfectly tuned. yeah you didn't get to play spiral knights for as long as you wanted and you couldnt spend a whole day playing it, but you got in, you did like all the way down to the boss if you were good, or if you were getting better at the game then you'd only make it like half way but there'd always be gradual improvements -- fuck even just getting to that last boss guy was something. when you first started playing you'd run out of miss just getting past the slime guy. it was neat! and i like that you had a sort of hard cap on your day. well, out of mist. played for an hour two. good time

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:03 am

My dad asked me what XP was today. He figured it was Extra Power. :3

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:06 am

seathesee wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54 pm i put some time into genshin impact and there are definitely a lot of nice things about it, but it is not a good game right now. its not a good gacha game. id even argue thats its not that great for a gacha game. im pretty amazed at the amount of good press its gotten thus far, and i have to think most people writing those articles did not get to the dragon fight (which should have been epic, but was actually pretty dumb and not at all fun or even skill testing).
I am very impressed with the game, still playing the hell out of it. Also, you are talking about the first dragon fight, which is kinda just a teaser or a mildly interactive cutscene. There's a second dragon fight later on, where the dragon fights back, and it's pretty epic (and wiped my party on my first try).

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Doug » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:37 pm

The Manifold Garden Connectivity Map (MGCM) png is 280 mb

I probably shouldn't upload that to the message board, huh

The image is some 80 rectangles connected by lines like a flowchart, and each rectangle is a full-size screen shot, making the entire image some 340 inches wide. But I reduced it to a 100-inch version

The result is a map that shows what I believe to be every area in the game, and how they're all connected. This map does not show you how to get from area to area, however! I have a true flowchart map for that (not here). You will have to open the image in a new tab to see it very well at all, because it will be zoomed way out when you look at it in the default message board view. In fact, it's zoomed out so far that it may not constitute spoilers. But just in case:

Spoilers spoilers spoilers
Spoiler!
Image
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

http://devilsbiscuit.com/

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:26 pm

Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:06 am
seathesee wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54 pm i put some time into genshin impact and there are definitely a lot of nice things about it, but it is not a good game right now. its not a good gacha game. id even argue thats its not that great for a gacha game. im pretty amazed at the amount of good press its gotten thus far, and i have to think most people writing those articles did not get to the dragon fight (which should have been epic, but was actually pretty dumb and not at all fun or even skill testing).
I am very impressed with the game, still playing the hell out of it. Also, you are talking about the first dragon fight, which is kinda just a teaser or a mildly interactive cutscene. There's a second dragon fight later on, where the dragon fights back, and it's pretty epic (and wiped my party on my first try).
i dont mean to say the game is awful. in all honesty i booted it up this morning a bit and enjoyed myself--my daughter loves watching it.

im talking about the dragon fight involving the harp. it starts off like a normalish boss encounter, where you have to hit a specific part of the dragons body while standing on a platform. that part was fine, except the bit where one of my party members would continually take damage during the cut scenes in the middle of that fight. then it turns into a sort of bullet hell thing, where you cant really dodge the missile attacks from the dragon, and the things you have to shoot to open the rings to accelerate so you can get to the dragon are 9 times out of ten in a place you cant maneuver to, so you have to wait, constantly being barraged by largely undodgable bullets for a ring that falls just within your reach (rng as far as i could tell). the rings arent hard to hit when it is possible to do so. there is no real skill in getting to the dragon. you cant really avoid the shots. you just have to bring enough food and wait. im glad i did, and i beat it first time through, but it was frustrating and boring and kind of stupid.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:36 pm

Doug wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:37 pm The Manifold Garden Connectivity Map (MGCM) png is 280 mb

I probably shouldn't upload that to the message board, huh

The image is some 80 rectangles connected by lines like a flowchart, and each rectangle is a full-size screen shot, making the entire image some 340 inches wide. But I reduced it to a 100-inch version

The result is a map that shows what I believe to be every area in the game, and how they're all connected. This map does not show you how to get from area to area, however! I have a true flowchart map for that (not here). You will have to open the image in a new tab to see it very well at all, because it will be zoomed way out when you look at it in the default message board view. In fact, it's zoomed out so far that it may not constitute spoilers. But just in case:

Spoilers spoilers spoilers
Spoiler!
Image
you should play La Mulana

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:37 pm

Shiny Days wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:07 am a lot of people seem pretty unhappy with the resin system. i haven't interacted with it, so i couldnt say, but, uh, i remember spiral knights having the mist thing and honestly it was pretty great. i wouldn't really argue for a stupid system to exist in a game and especially for the sake of / it only existing to get people to spend money to get past it or whatever, but, like, it was so nearly perfectly tuned. yeah you didn't get to play spiral knights for as long as you wanted and you couldnt spend a whole day playing it, but you got in, you did like all the way down to the boss if you were good, or if you were getting better at the game then you'd only make it like half way but there'd always be gradual improvements -- fuck even just getting to that last boss guy was something. when you first started playing you'd run out of miss just getting past the slime guy. it was neat! and i like that you had a sort of hard cap on your day. well, out of mist. played for an hour two. good time
its not the resin i have a problem with. i havent really gotten to a point where exploring is not really a thing i can do anymore. ive heard this occurs around account level 30, and i am account level 22 as of writing this.

some of the issues i have with the game (as a game), and especially as on being compared favorably to botw are:

-theres no real defensive moves. there is no dodge. there is no roll. there is no block. there is no parry. you can run, and you get a little dash when you start your run, and you can jump. this leads to a lot of face tanking. you can certainly move out of the way of attacks or stun mid attack, so its not unfair, and there are skill testers, but it feels very clunky for a botw style game. i think they did this because of the gacha nature--progression is supposed to be primarily through leveling/crafting/spending and not through skill. its "fine", but i expect more from a game holding itself out as a aaa-like, and especially one channeling the spirit of botw.

-the map is pretty, and there are some landmarkish type things, but it feels very samey. you have this big beautiful map--give it some more variety. give me uniwque structures. give me interesting natural landmarks. theres not really enough of this there.

-the temples suck. theyre a far cry from botw. the puzzles are easy or non-existant. the monsters are almost always slimes or bobkins. the mini-bosses are interestingish, but there arent enough of them.

its just a very barebones botw right now.

the problems i have with it as a gacha game are:

-the ingame currency is there, but its a trickle. theres no big boosts in currency or other items aside from the game release rewards for initial pulls. no accomplishment feels meaningful in terms of rewards. this leads to doing things not feeling very rewarding, and instead feeling very grindy.

-the pull rates are fucking awful. its .6% drop rate on the 5 star units. the industry standard is 2%. you also get less currency than most gachas during the honey moon phase. so, i get less pulls, and am less likely to get something when i pull. i like opening packs! let me open more packs! ive gotten nothing of value since starting.

theres probably more annoying things. i havent been writing them down. its a fine game. its what i would expect, frankly, from a f2p game of this sort. its just not a aaa killer or the gacha to kill all gachas. its a marvel of a phone game, but a mediocre pc game for now at least.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 pm

seathesee wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:26 pm
Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:06 am
seathesee wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54 pm i put some time into genshin impact and there are definitely a lot of nice things about it, but it is not a good game right now. its not a good gacha game. id even argue thats its not that great for a gacha game. im pretty amazed at the amount of good press its gotten thus far, and i have to think most people writing those articles did not get to the dragon fight (which should have been epic, but was actually pretty dumb and not at all fun or even skill testing).
I am very impressed with the game, still playing the hell out of it. Also, you are talking about the first dragon fight, which is kinda just a teaser or a mildly interactive cutscene. There's a second dragon fight later on, where the dragon fights back, and it's pretty epic (and wiped my party on my first try).
i dont mean to say the game is awful. in all honesty i booted it up this morning a bit and enjoyed myself--my daughter loves watching it.

im talking about the dragon fight involving the harp. it starts off like a normalish boss encounter, where you have to hit a specific part of the dragons body while standing on a platform. that part was fine, except the bit where one of my party members would continually take damage during the cut scenes in the middle of that fight. then it turns into a sort of bullet hell thing, where you cant really dodge the missile attacks from the dragon, and the things you have to shoot to open the rings to accelerate so you can get to the dragon are 9 times out of ten in a place you cant maneuver to, so you have to wait, constantly being barraged by largely undodgable bullets for a ring that falls just within your reach (rng as far as i could tell). the rings arent hard to hit when it is possible to do so. there is no real skill in getting to the dragon. you cant really avoid the shots. you just have to bring enough food and wait. im glad i did, and i beat it first time through, but it was frustrating and boring and kind of stupid.
I'm a little puzzled what you mean, because I had no trouble avoiding the shots (got hit by a couple of them because I messed up, but they were all clearly dodgeable), and the shootable things are doled out on a regular timed basis (there may be others you can see in the background but not hit, I didn't pay attention to that, but the ones you're supposed to hit come regularly and are clearly telegraphed).

That wasn't where I died, I died on the second stage of the fight. Anyway, that's not what I liked about the game, but it's also like a 10-minute segment after 15 hours of gameplay that never comes up again, so why would the reviewers talk about it?

There's also a stealth segment in the game you didn't mention that sucks way worse, but it's also 5 minutes to do, so big deal.

I just like doing the thing you actually do 99% of the time, which is wandering out in the world and seeing what's there, picking up loot and killing monsters and doing a quest if it's nearby. I like that I can do it while watching youtube. It's a perfect "something to do" game. And it helps that it's very easy on the eyes and ears.

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Rylinks » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:41 pm

playing hades, combat is a little fast for my taste but overall good

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Rylinks » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:47 pm

oh and the sword has animation cancels that increase the attack speed slightly and so i feel obligated to learn them, that part is bad

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:49 pm

seathesee wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:37 pm -theres no real defensive moves. there is no dodge. there is no roll. there is no block. there is no parry. you can run, and you get a little dash when you start your run, and you can jump. this leads to a lot of face tanking. you can certainly move out of the way of attacks or stun mid attack, so its not unfair, and there are skill testers, but it feels very clunky for a botw style game. i think they did this because of the gacha nature--progression is supposed to be primarily through leveling/crafting/spending and not through skill. its "fine", but i expect more from a game holding itself out as a aaa-like, and especially one channeling the spirit of botw.
Okay, so there is a dodge, and it has invincibility frames, and I really suggest practicing using it if you're ever planning on doing the more challenging fights where you can't outlevel the enemies and facetanking is not an option. Here's a guide to an endgame dungeon called the Spiral Abyss, note the lack of facetanking and the clever use of dodge, a mechanic that exists.
-the map is pretty, and there are some landmarkish type things, but it feels very samey. you have this big beautiful map--give it some more variety. give me uniwque structures. give me interesting natural landmarks. theres not really enough of this there.
I liked the starting continent a lot, but agreed. If you're looking for more unique stuff, get over to the second continent, Liyue.
-the temples suck. theyre a far cry from botw. the puzzles are easy or non-existant. the monsters are almost always slimes or bobkins. the mini-bosses are interestingish, but there arent enough of them.
Yeah the temples aren't interesting, for the most part.

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:50 pm

Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 pm

I'm a little puzzled what you mean, because I had no trouble avoiding the shots (got hit by a couple of them because I messed up, but they were all clearly dodgeable), and the shootable things are doled out on a regular timed basis (there may be others you can see in the background but not hit, I didn't pay attention to that, but the ones you're supposed to hit come regularly and are clearly telegraphed).
i mean, i was using a controller, so i dont know if that affected things. i felt like i could move in a 10x10 box in the middle of a 100x100 screen. i could dodge attacks when that section of the screen wasnt mostly filled, but there were a number of times the attacks were undodgable. i agree the ones i was supposed to hit cam regularly, and were clearly telegraphed by color, but if the ring opened up outside the 10x10 box i was forced to fly by it. like 1 in 10 fell in that 10x10 box.
Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 pmbut it's also like a 10-minute segment after 15 hours of gameplay that never comes up again, so why would the reviewers talk about it?
its important because its the first marquee fight of the game with a ton of buildup. it was lame. are all the marquee fights going to be like this? its a poorly designed and unfun fight, which was the developers opportunity to throw something truly epic out there and hook the player. it has a ton of buildup. i was excited. it was a huge let down.
Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 pmThere's also a stealth segment in the game you didn't mention that sucks way worse, but it's also 5 minutes, so big deal.
if this is what im thinking of it didnt bug me much. my stomach tightened when i sensed a stealth segment, but i was able to pretty much run through it. im used to bad stealth segments in zelda games, and those tend to be way more frustrating and slow paced.
Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:40 pmI just like doing the thing you actually do 99% of the time, which is wandering out in the world and seeing what's there, picking up loot and killing monsters and doing a quest if it's nearby. I like that I can do it while watching youtube. It's a perfect "something to do" game. And it helps that it's very easy on the eyes and ears.
see, i dont really disagree with this. botw was not that sort of game, though. i read more than one article comparing the game favorably to breath of the wild, and even remarking that there were improvements to the formula. im just not impressed on that level. its a beautiful gacha game. it doesnt do the gacha stuff well, though. to my mind, its trying to be two things and not doing either particularly well.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:54 pm

Ashenai wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:49 pm Okay, so there is a dodge, and it has invincibility frames, and I really suggest practicing using it if you're ever planning on doing the more challenging fights where you can't outlevel the enemies and facetanking is not an option.
the dash, right? in botw there is a roll, a dodge, a dash, a block, and a parry.
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:04 pm

Yeah, the dash is the dodge. If you time it right it can save you from anything except multi-hit AoEs (which are all highly telegraphed and you just need to get out of the area.)

I think the combat is very skill-based, and I'm pretty sure you can kill anything in the game without taking any damage, although easier said than done, obviously. I'm far from godlike, I've been juggled to death plenty of times by Cryo Regisvine gatling ice sprays and stunlocked by charging Hilichurls, but it also 100% felt like my fault when that happened.

The real trick is not avoiding damage, it's knowing how far you can push your luck in combat, because almost all of the characters want to be relatively close to the enemies for good DPS and stacking the all-important elemental statuses. So you're always tempted to do just one more switch and activate one more skill, because hey the enemies have Superconduct on, now's the time to pile on the damage and ignore all the ominous red circles appearing in the area oh fuck.

I definitely feel like there's a lot to juggle and a lot to learn about combat. I'm enjoying it far more than BotW, which felt... fine, combat-wise. This, to me, feels great.

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:09 pm

And this is specifically about the hard combats, regular combat I do the lazy thing too: activate DPS summon 1, switch and activate DPS summon 2, then switch to carry and mash the attack button until everything is dead. You can do that in overworld battles because you're usually overleveled and overpowered as fuck, so there's no challenge unless you're consciously practicing your technique.

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:11 pm

well, ill be happy if some of my misgivings about combat are misplaced.

to be clear, though, my complaint isnt that the combat, or the game at large, is too difficult. ive never wiped. i am ar 22. i think the game is too easy and lets you facetank and combat feels less interactive because of the lack of defensive options. maybe i do need to come up against some of the more difficult fights and be forced to explore the minutiae of the combat system, though.

come to think of it there was a fight i had to run away from--it was the purple cube thing that splits apart. it was a leyline boss. ill keep our discussion in mind next time i run across one (and prepare complaints afterwards ;D).
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:14 pm

also, i will say i think the game has set up a really nice foundation for it to build off of. the elements system is really cool, and they are obviously going to be building a bazillion new zones that they could (and should) make more elaborate than the existing two. in a lot of ways it reminds me of no mans sky at release wrt potential/execution at outset. theyre going to need to shore up the gacha mechanics, though.
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 pm

Supposedly, World Level 3 (at AR 30) is where things actually start getting hairy and you have to pay attention more often, as well as engage with the weapon/item/talent level-up system. You're at World Level 1 right now (AR 20-25). I haven't reached WR3 yet either, so I dunno, and I can imagine getting burned out on things once I get there.

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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:22 pm

seathesee wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:14 pm also, i will say i think the game has set up a really nice foundation for it to build off of. the elements system is really cool, and they are obviously going to be building a bazillion new zones that they could (and should) make more elaborate than the existing two. in a lot of ways it reminds me of no mans sky at release wrt potential/execution at outset. theyre going to need to shore up the gacha mechanics, though.
People with experience with gachas and MiHoYo's other games in particular are saying that the early months are usually a shark trap: progress is throttled so sharks will be motivated to throw money at the problem and be the first to achieve milestones. Then, things ease up and everyone gets more resin and free rolls and stuff.

BUT they also said that the core of the gacha system is unlikely to change, so make friends with the 0.6%.

I dunno, I still don't feel committed. I spent $5 on the monthly thing because that felt like a reasonable purchase. I am really enjoying myself and I hope I don't stop enjoying myself! But if I do, hey, I'll learn to love again.

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Ashenai
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Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:23 pm

Also, this is the very first gacha game I've played and I'm finding that low-stakes gambling is fun! I opened two Monas, she's cool and I went YESSSS when the shooting star turned gold.

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