It's Videogames

Yeah!

Shitposting, Video Games, Manga, and Anime

Moderator: Wumpy

User avatar
Doug
Has anybody seen my parrot
Forum Elf
Posts: 20552
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Doug » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:15 pm

Everspace has metaprogression, I don't see how the game would work without it

The metaprogression involves leveling up decisions like you would make in an RPG
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

http://devilsbiscuit.com/

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:35 pm

I think fundamentally it feels bad to get stronger when you lose instead of getting stronger because you overcame an obstacle.

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:36 pm

Rylinks wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:54 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:57 pm
seathesee wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:32 pm can anyone explain to me how gradual persistent buffs in a roguelite (e.g. hades, rogue legacy, etc.) are somehow more of a game design sin than stat and equipment leveling in an open world action rpg where the entire map is largely accessible from the beginning (e.g. elden ring, botw, etc.)?

ill take my answer off air.
I disagree with Rylinks. To me, metaprogression in the form of persistent buffs is one of the worst things a roguelike can do, and it will absolutely turn me off from what is otherwise a great game (Hades).

The Elden Ring thing doesn't bother me at all. I think the difference is that map mastery (knowing where to go and what order to do things in) is a player skill you can hone in Elden Ring, and it's fun and satisfying to hone it. Permabuffs are not a player skill, they're just the game gradually lowering the bar over repeated runs.
i think if this is your position you have to reject the vast majority of games, which rely mostly on in-game buffs for progression rather than player skill
I enjoy in-game progression! Only metaprogression bothers me.

User avatar
Doug
Has anybody seen my parrot
Forum Elf
Posts: 20552
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Doug » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:43 pm

haplo wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:35 pm I think fundamentally it feels bad to get stronger when you lose instead of getting stronger because you overcame an obstacle.
Ah I see what you mean now

Well in Everspace you don't automatically progress. You have to actually collect things during your runs -- dying doesn't cause you to level up
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

http://devilsbiscuit.com/

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:13 pm

Ashenai wrote:
I enjoy in-game progression! Only metaprogression bothers me.
Well, consider what the difference is between doing a Hades run and getting 10 "levels" (darkness) and then spending them when you "finish" (die) vs getting 10 sphere levels in FFX and spending them at the next save point. The sphere grid is not really part of the gameplay just like the Hades mirror isn't. You get exp points in both cases from playing the game.

It's an interesting question because fundamentally they sound the same when you explain them, but also I think to anyone who plays both of these styles of games definitely knows that they feel different when you play.

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:15 pm

Another fundamental difference I think is that in a roguelite you're typically designed to lose until you level up enough, which requires you to die and replay things. Whereas in FFX, you're expected to be able to beat each boss through regular traversal through the level. So it never feels like you're being cheated in FFX like you might feel in Hades. I know grinding exists in JRPGs but in nearly all of them it's not required to advance, while it's almost always mandatory in roguelikes.

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:35 pm

haplo wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:15 pm Another fundamental difference I think is that in a roguelite you're typically designed to lose until you level up enough, which requires you to die and replay things. Whereas in FFX, you're expected to be able to beat each boss through regular traversal through the level. So it never feels like you're being cheated in FFX like you might feel in Hades. I know grinding exists in JRPGs but in nearly all of them it's not required to advance, while it's almost always mandatory in roguelikes.
this is why the open-world map available portion of the question was important.

in elden ring, you could hypothetically run to radhan as a level 1, and fight a boss you are not supposed to without putting in 20+ hours of leveling. if youre good enough, you might be able to beat him! this is not possible in more on the rails rpgs like FFX.

similarly, in hades, you could hypothetically successfully complete a full run without any meta-progression, trinkets, weapon upgrades, etc. on your first run. it would be extremely difficult, but is possible.

its the leveling in these open world action rpgs like elden ring and botw that i find to be relatively similar to meta progression in roguelites.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Doug
Has anybody seen my parrot
Forum Elf
Posts: 20552
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Doug » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:52 pm

In fact, Elden Ring now notoriously goes a step further and puts bosses in your path from the very beginning that you really should go around because you're really not ready for them
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

http://devilsbiscuit.com/

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:07 pm

seathesee wrote:
this is why the open-world map available portion of the question was important.

in elden ring, you could hypothetically run to radhan as a level 1, and fight a boss you are not supposed to without putting in 20+ hours of leveling. if youre good enough, you might be able to beat him! this is not possible in more on the rails rpgs like FFX.

similarly, in hades, you could hypothetically successfully complete a full run without any leveling on your first run. it would be extremely difficult, but is possible.

its the leveling in these open world action rpgs like elden ring and botw that i find to be relatively similar to meta progression in roguelites.
A question to ask then is why do roguelites make you replay the same content over and over? In Elden Ring if you want to go try a boss you're underleveled against, you can do that over and over until you win. In Hades I have to trudge through 30 minutes of mandatory exp grinding just to try again - not using that EXP just to make it harder on yourself would be stupid since the game is designed around you using it. It's not really a question of difficulty, but fun - it's not fun to fight a boss that 1-hit-kills you and takes 1000 attacks to defeat. If I'm stuck in Hades I just die over and over until I'm strong enough. If I'm stuck in Elden Ring I go to a different area/boss. Ironically, Elden Ring is designed around you using summons for bosses which I didn't do and I felt the game was worse for it.

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:12 pm

haplo wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:13 pm
Ashenai wrote:
I enjoy in-game progression! Only metaprogression bothers me.
Well, consider what the difference is between doing a Hades run and getting 10 "levels" (darkness) and then spending them when you "finish" (die) vs getting 10 sphere levels in FFX and spending them at the next save point. The sphere grid is not really part of the gameplay just like the Hades mirror isn't. You get exp points in both cases from playing the game.

It's an interesting question because fundamentally they sound the same when you explain them, but also I think to anyone who plays both of these styles of games definitely knows that they feel different when you play.
It's a big difference when you're talking about a game that's designed to be played repeatedly (as all roguelikes and games with metaprogression are)!

If I replay FFX, I start out at the same power level I did last time, and the same power level of everyone else starting the game. And if last time I died to the first boss, and this time I don't, then I have the satisfaction of knowing that I got better at the game, I made smarter choices with my character builds, whatever. I advanced in skill, as a player.

If I do the same in Hades, then yeah the monsters sure are melting quicker this time because I have more buffs, so the game got easier. I find no satisfaction in that. Any accomplishment I achieve like that is tainted, worthless.

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:19 pm

it turns out roguelites are bad

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:20 pm

except Isaac, that game is fun. it doesn't really have upgrades though (outside of some unlocks purposely being really good or bad for the sake of fun), just unlocking more content which is the way to go imo

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:21 pm

FTL is good too, more games should follow those examples

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:22 pm

I agree, I enjoyed Isaac and FTL and Slay the Spire, and never felt like the metaprogression in those games was an issue, because it wasn't about constantly lowering the bar.

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:34 pm

haplo wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:07 pm A question to ask then is why do roguelites make you replay the same content over and over? In Elden Ring if you want to go try a boss you're underleveled against, you can do that over and over until you win. In Hades I have to trudge through 30 minutes of mandatory exp grinding just to try again - not using that EXP just to make it harder on yourself would be stupid since the game is designed around you using it. It's not really a question of difficulty, but fun - it's not fun to fight a boss that 1-hit-kills you and takes 1000 attacks to defeat. If I'm stuck in Hades I just die over and over until I'm strong enough. If I'm stuck in Elden Ring I go to a different area/boss. Ironically, Elden Ring is designed around you using summons for bosses which I didn't do and I felt the game was worse for it.
im trying hard not to insert myself into this, and instead just listen to others thoughts on my question.

that said, since you asked, i think roguelites live and die on novelty. at the beginning, its fun to see how far you can get with the odds highly against you--how far can your raw skill take you? as you level up, you are trying different builds, seeing and using new items, using new character classes (if relevant), getting new story bits, discovering new bosses and enemies, figuring out what builds can take you through the dungeon and also work on the bosses youre slowly learning.

i think thats why the popular roguelites tend to have a very large amount of unique items, traits, classes, boons, weapons, etc.

there are skill tests, they just arent static. they wont be the same for everyone. they wont be the same play through to play through. they wont be the same depending on the hours youve put into the game. in hades case, they can be highly customizable. they might involve speed instead of goal lines.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:37 pm

it was an interesting question to think about

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:40 pm

i think BoI was the only roguelite ive played that managed to dispense with more than mild meta-progression and keep the novelty level high. even then, though, BoI runs frequently got boring after id done them enough and were much longer than most roguelites. usually, towards the end, id rush through 90% of easy stuff to get to the very difficult end, so i could unlock some achievement or character or whatever. i feel like this sort of mirrors your hades experience.

if slay the spire counts, it did a pretty good job with novelty and mild meta-progression. probably better than BoI.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:46 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:12 pm

It's a big difference when you're talking about a game that's designed to be played repeatedly (as all roguelikes and games with metaprogression are)!

If I replay FFX, I start out at the same power level I did last time, and the same power level of everyone else starting the game. And if last time I died to the first boss, and this time I don't, then I have the satisfaction of knowing that I got better at the game, I made smarter choices with my character builds, whatever. I advanced in skill, as a player.

If I do the same in Hades, then yeah the monsters sure are melting quicker this time because I have more buffs, so the game got easier. I find no satisfaction in that. Any accomplishment I achieve like that is tainted, worthless.
do you play all games with difficulty levels on the hardest difficulty level?
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:56 pm

seathesee wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:46 pm
Ashenai wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:12 pm It's a big difference when you're talking about a game that's designed to be played repeatedly (as all roguelikes and games with metaprogression are)!

If I replay FFX, I start out at the same power level I did last time, and the same power level of everyone else starting the game. And if last time I died to the first boss, and this time I don't, then I have the satisfaction of knowing that I got better at the game, I made smarter choices with my character builds, whatever. I advanced in skill, as a player.

If I do the same in Hades, then yeah the monsters sure are melting quicker this time because I have more buffs, so the game got easier. I find no satisfaction in that. Any accomplishment I achieve like that is tainted, worthless.
do you play all games with difficulty levels on the hardest difficulty level?
I seem to remember we've done the difficulty level debate before as well. Wait, was that on GG? Anyway.

Fundamentally, I don't like difficulty levels; my favorite games don't have them. For games that do, I usually choose whichever one is labelled "for experienced players looking for a challenge", because difficulty levels beyond that tend to only be beatable through weird and degenerate strategies ("breaking the game"), and I want to experience the game properly, at least at first. So e.g. in Doom I play on Ultra-Violence, not Nightmare.

I want games to be hard, because I enjoy the process of honing, of mastering a game through experience and thought and effort, and if a game can't kick my ass then that never happens. I also like having to use every resource at my disposal to get out of a difficult situation. When there's a game I enjoy but I find too easy, I stack self-imposed restrictions until it gets hard enough to be a satisfying challenge. (No reloading, no shops, no consumables, no grinding...)

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:05 pm

im sorry you feel like this is a debate.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:06 pm

Whuh? What's wrong with a debate?

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:07 pm

just a different energy level than i am going for/feeling myself.
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:07 pm

tell me your thoughts. can i grab you another beer?
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:12 pm

I didn't mean to get uncomfortably intense on you, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that my way of playing is more correct than any other way! It's just what I like. I like struggles, I like tough fights. I'd much rather lose a difficult battle and then think about how I could have won than win a bunch of easy battles with simple strategies. Into the Breach is a good example of the kind of game that holds my attention!

User avatar
Ashenai
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 10522
Joined: May 29, 2019

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Ashenai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:14 pm

seathesee wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:07 pm tell me your thoughts. can i grab you another beer?
we can do karaoke!

User avatar
Crunchums
Forum Elf
Forum Elf
Posts: 16117
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Crunchums » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:17 pm

i don't think StS should be considered a roguelite
u gotta skate

User avatar
groff_enthusiast
The original good boy.
Cardboard Robot
Posts: 1096
Joined: Oct 20, 2021

Re: It's Videogames

Post by groff_enthusiast » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:24 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:12 pm I didn't mean to get uncomfortably intense on you, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that my way of playing is more correct than any other way! It's just what I like. I like struggles, I like tough fights. I'd much rather lose a difficult battle and then think about how I could have won than win a bunch of easy battles with simple strategies. Into the Breach is a good example of the kind of game that holds my attention!
Good response.

Sea, your rebuttal?
Ashenai wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:08 pmoh no

User avatar
haplo
Posting Automaton
Posting Automaton
Posts: 3428
Joined: Aug 24, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by haplo » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:27 pm

Crunchums wrote:i don't think StS should be considered a roguelite
roguelite is a genre modifier, not a primary genre. but you can still categorize things by their genre modifier. like "party" games which doesn't tell you anything about the game itself but has a certain set of qualities that other party games share.

User avatar
seathesee
Sentient Keyboard
Sentient Keyboard
Posts: 5459
Joined: Aug 23, 2018

Re: It's Videogames

Post by seathesee » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:56 pm

Ashenai wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:12 pm I didn't mean to get uncomfortably intense on you, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that my way of playing is more correct than any other way! It's just what I like. I like struggles, I like tough fights. I'd much rather lose a difficult battle and then think about how I could have won than win a bunch of easy battles with simple strategies. Into the Breach is a good example of the kind of game that holds my attention!
im fine haha. i was worried about making you feel uncomfortable, or like you needed to justify your feelings, or that i was trying to gotcha you with my question or whatever.

challenge is a big reason why i play the games i do too. i dont really understand the perception that roguelites are devoid of challenge (i understand it a bit better after today). ive found many of them to be much more challenging and engrossing than many games without any meta-progression. this disconnect seemed relevant and interesting again with the advent and popularity of elden ring, which, i think, has a leveling system and accessibility of the complete world similar to that of many meta-progression roguelikes that is not obvious on its face.

its interesting, youve discuss this topic through the lens of a lot of games you have played, but there is one game in particular i know you enjoyed which seems much more relevant than some of your examples. does genshin impact not have a lot of similarities to meta-progression roguelites in its leveling system and world accessibility?
with love, your good friend, seathesee

User avatar
Luna
...but history refused to change
...but history refused to change
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 28, 2020

Re: It's Videogames

Post by Luna » Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:42 am

conversation difficulty

edit - like the great philosopher cosecant once said, communication is dante must die

Post Reply