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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:30 pm

and in almost every battle there are going to be far more turns where no pokemon is dynamaxed than turns where a pokemon is dynamaxed.
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:35 pm

seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:27 pm
Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:22 pm
seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:18 pm your argument makes more sense if you are treating 6v6 smogon formats as the be all end all of comeptitive pokemon. thats just not the case, though. the official cartridge formats, which the game design supports hypothetically, are 4v4 doubles and 3v3 singles.
why is elevating dig et. al. better than elevating protect, whirlwind, encore, etc in any format
those didnt need elevation. they were already useful tools in heavy use. adding useful tools to the metagame is a good thing.

to me, bad game design would be: "the move scratch does double damage to dynamaxed pokemon." that feels arbitrary and silly. good design is the move dig that does the things it does now has an additional situation that is useful because this new thing that does its things tends to set up one of the situations in which dig is useful because it does the things it does.
you can build a moveset or a team around protect or whirlwind. you can't do that with dig. having protect be good increases metagame diversity while dig lets players do the same thing they were already going to do except now they also have a button to stop th new mechanic

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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:37 pm

also since protect is apparently a useful tool when compared to dig feel free to replace all the instances of "bad" in my posts with "not a very useful tool"

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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:41 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:35 pm
seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:27 pm
Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:22 pm

why is elevating dig et. al. better than elevating protect, whirlwind, encore, etc in any format
those didnt need elevation. they were already useful tools in heavy use. adding useful tools to the metagame is a good thing.

to me, bad game design would be: "the move scratch does double damage to dynamaxed pokemon." that feels arbitrary and silly. good design is the move dig that does the things it does now has an additional situation that is useful because this new thing that does its things tends to set up one of the situations in which dig is useful because it does the things it does.
you can build a moveset or a team around protect or whirlwind. you can't do that with dig. having protect be good increases metagame diversity while dig lets players do the same thing they were already going to do except now they also have a button to stop th new mechanic
i just dont think thats a bad thing, though. haze or rapid spin are pretty similar. they are moves that are useful vs. a specific situation and nowhere else. they arent moves you can build around. they arent bad moves. they are moves that provide an interesting situation, insofar as it makes the player consider whether its worth giving up 1 of 4 slots on their pokemon to deal with a specific powerful situation that is likely to arise over the course of a battle. should i give up raw power for situational power? i think thats an interesting decision that makes the game better. dig et al. has been elevated to haze/rapid spin status (and is actually a little more useful than those because it can also function as a probably worse STAB/coverage move).
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm

it's not an interesting decision if stopping very large setup sweepers is mandatory

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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:47 pm

to go on the offensive a bit, protect is a pretty good move that was worthy of a minor nerf like this. defensive pokemon are arguably some of the best in the previous metagame. protect is a really powerful tool that you get to use every other turn for, in common situations, an extreme one sided advantage. having it do its thing less well for three turns out of however many turns a battle is seems like both not a bad thing, and a thing which could lead to more interesting battles.
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:53 pm

nerfing protect is fine! maybe it was even necessary, and while randomly giving things immunity to protect isn't super elegant whatever. But it's evident from the long list of things that very large pokemon are immune to that the motivation is not nerfing protect it's removing counterplay

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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:56 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm it's not an interesting decision if stopping very large setup sweepers is mandatory
it already was, really. beyond that, though, the interesting decision is how. you can beat a setup sweeper by putting a wall in front of it, buffing your own mon, killing the other mon before it sweeps, or having a very specific move that is particuarly useful in those situations. its not like protect does nothing or dig is necessary to not lose to dynamax pokemon. i gotta say, ive played a bunch of matches ves. dynamax pokemon, and the hp doubling feels like the more relevant part of the dynamax than the increased damage moves or the effects of those moves. wether teams are better in doubles and 6v6, though, and i dont play those formats.
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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:58 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:53 pm But it's evident from the long list of things that very large pokemon are immune to
like 80% of that list can be boiled down to "dynamax pokemon are immune to flinching"

flinching is kind of an unfun mechanic anyway, tbh.
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:03 pm

seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:56 pm
Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm it's not an interesting decision if stopping very large setup sweepers is mandatory
it already was, really. beyond that, though, the interesting decision is how. you can beat a setup sweeper by putting a wall in front of it, buffing your own mon, killing the other mon before it sweeps, or having a very specific move that is particuarly useful in those situations. its not like protect does nothing or dig is necessary to not lose to dynamax pokemon. i gotta say, ive played a bunch of matches ves. dynamax pokemon, and the hp doubling feels like the more relevant part of the dynamax than the increased damage moves or the effects of those moves. wether teams are better in doubles and 6v6, though, and i dont play those formats.
buffing your own mon and killing the other mon before it sweeps are both pretty difficult against dynamax, because the opposing mon attacks you while buffing itself, and because of the double HP respectively. i don't know about the potential walls for the best dynamax sweepers but people aren't talking like there are very many

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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:04 pm

seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:58 pm
Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:53 pm But it's evident from the long list of things that very large pokemon are immune to
like 80% of that list can be boiled down to "dynamax pokemon are immune to flinching"

flinching is kind of an unfun mechanic anyway, tbh.
whirlwind and friends are pretty important too! but the point isn't that encore is a super important immunity it's that including it on the list it makes the intention of removing any way to shut down a dynamax pokemon clear

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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:06 pm

people on the internet tend to lean in to "the sky is falling" side of things.

seriously, though, look at the list of dynamax immunities carefully. its almost irrelevant. i actually didnt even know dynamax pokemon were immune to anything, after playing ~100 matches with/against them, until you said something.
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:06 pm

actually you know what i understand now, i was mistaken

the immunities are for pve and pvp is an afterthought. it's still unfortunate but most of the pokemon game is pve so i understand why they did it and would like to apologize and retract any statements criticizing the game design decisions.

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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:08 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:04 pm

whirlwind and friends are pretty important too! but the point isn't that encore is a super important immunity it's that including it on the list it makes the intention of removing any way to shut down a dynamax pokemon clear
well its not immune to encore, it just cancels it (because the dynamax pokemon literally no longer has that move anymore). whirlwind sees very little play in cartridge formats fwiw.
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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:09 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:06 pm actually you know what i understand now, i was mistaken

the immunities are for pve and pvp is an afterthought. it's still unfortunate but most of the pokemon game is pve so i understand why they did it and would like to apologize and retract any statements criticizing the game design decisions.
that may be so, but im telling you the immunities almost never come up in the cartridge formats. the game is designed for cartridge formats and not smogon formats.
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:10 pm

seathesee wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:06 pm people on the internet tend to lean in to "the sky is falling" side of things.

seriously, though, look at the list of dynamax immunities carefully. its almost irrelevant. i actually didnt even know dynamax pokemon were immune to anything, after playing ~100 matches with/against them, until you said something.
i don't think that pokemon battles will become unplayable garbage or anything. I do think removing counterplay to your new mechanic is really bad for pvp game design, although i understand why they did it now.

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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:11 pm

i do wonder what the success of _looks at smogon_ yoloing dynamax hawlucha first turn in every battle in cartridge would be though

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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:12 pm

i am probably willing to do that experiment for science. what build were you looking at?
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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:13 pm

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance
- Thunder Punch

i think that's the most yolo one on https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hawlucha.3656450/

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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:15 pm

i suspect there's probably too much stuff that ohkos it even through dynamax

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Re: pokemons

Post by Hoshi » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:25 am

Crunchums wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 pm if phantom force is so good, then how much use did it see in competitive battling prior to this generation? (you said it was introduced in the previous generation) imma guess the answer is zero
Some Gyarados used Bounce but I think that was because it was the only physical Flying move it got

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Re: pokemons

Post by Rylinks » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:27 am

some people use them with z-move or power herb too it looked like

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Re: pokemons

Post by Hoshi » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:29 am

Rylinks wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm it's not an interesting decision if stopping very large setup sweepers is mandatory
This is the compelling part of your argument. I agree with sea that a buff that makes dig-type moves more interesting is actually nice to see, but if dynamax is pushed too hard (haven't played with it yet) then it's certainly a net negative.

EDIT: My friend told me that Protect just straight up didn't work against dynamax'd pokemon though, so that says something about how much I know about this or about how important it is that the damage part works or not (apparently not so much)

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Re: pokemons

Post by Faceless » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:37 pm

Actual footage of me team building in SwSh (2019, colourised)
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Re: pokemons

Post by seathesee » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:49 pm

i took this like a week or so ago. still think its funny.
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Re: pokemons

Post by drk » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:27 pm

He's branding them, the monster.

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Re: pokemons

Post by Faceless » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:17 am

Latest PoGo update added the ability to have your buddy follow you in the overpriced so now I've got a Lucario naruto running behind the car
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Re: pokemons

Post by rianalnn » Fri May 08, 2020 1:21 am

My 9 is jealous of your Mewtwo, KingRamz

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Bring on the kung-fu amputees - no arms vs. no legs anyone? A bit of high-speed underground ninja-tunneling is always good as well. I wanna see some shit like that. Crazy monks with gnarly special powers can make any film good. FACT.

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Re: pokemons

Post by KingRamz » Fri May 08, 2020 2:53 pm

I've never fallen for the [you] tag before and I'm not falling for it this time either

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Re: pokemons

Post by KingRamz » Fri May 08, 2020 2:54 pm

But yeah that was pretty sweet. My 7 was also jealous. It was the final reward for the Kanto research chain that's expiring today

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