Weeb-go

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Rylinks
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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:23 pm

imo it's a mistake compared the 100% optimal best japanese learning strategy, but you will still learn if you study kanji--it's not useless

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:23 pm

By the way, it's very possible that WK is not the best method for learning Japanese, since there's a lot more to Japanese than kanji. You can finish WaniKani and still not be able to string together a Japanese sentence. But as far as learning kanji goes, I think it's very very good.

edit: yeah what Rylinks said

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:25 pm

Rylinks wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:07 pm i remember the quadratic formula with the pop goes the weasel song too
When I was 10, the teacher I had in Canada (Ms. Voidka) asked us to come up with our own mnemonic for the planets of the solar system. To this day, it's how I remember them: Ms Voidka Eats My Joyful Sister Under New Plants. (Yeah I know. Pluto was still a planet back then.)

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:29 pm

Ashenai wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:23 pm By the way, it's very possible that WK is not the best method for learning Japanese, since there's a lot more to Japanese than kanji. You can finish WaniKani and still not be able to string together a Japanese sentence. But as far as learning kanji goes, I think it's very very good.

edit: yeah what Rylinks said
my plan is to learn a pile of vocabulary and then ram my head into trying to read things until i osmose the grammar

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Doug » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:39 pm

Planto isn't a pluet
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Khaos » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:52 pm

Ashenai wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:25 pm
Rylinks wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:07 pm i remember the quadratic formula with the pop goes the weasel song too
When I was 10, the teacher I had in Canada (Ms. Voidka) asked us to come up with our own mnemonic for the planets of the solar system. To this day, it's how I remember them: Ms Voidka Eats My Joyful Sister Under New Plants. (Yeah I know. Pluto was still a planet back then.)
you lived in canada? for how long?

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:27 pm

We lived in Saskatoon for 2 years when I was little!

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Shiny Days » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:30 pm

oof

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Khaos » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:33 pm

truly you are a worldly man

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:43 pm

Shiny Days wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:30 pmoof
It was great! There was an abandoned junkyard right across the street from our apartment. My sister and I and a Polish girl from the next apartment building over would crawl under the wire fence and explore the place. It was awesome.

Also, the first winter we were there, my mom washed my jacket and put it out to dry, and it shattered. Saskatoon winters are quite a thing.

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Crunchums » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:49 pm

Ashenai wrote:Also, the first winter we were there, my mom washed my jacket and put it out to dry, and it shattered. Saskatoon winters are quite a thing.
nope nope nope nope nope nope nope
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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Monty » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:50 pm

I've been trying to improve my geography knowledge (the lockdown does funny things to a man) by drilling online quizzes, and I've been using a ton of small mnemonics. They're mostly to remember which of two countries goes where, like "Well, Oman and Yemen have similar names, but Oman is alphabetically first, so it's the more northerly one, and Yemen is right below that." That's a mnemonic I don't need anymore, because I have taught myself which one is which by using the mnemonic over and over again. I don't need to remember "The Czech Republic is on the left and Slovakia is on the right because that's the order they appear in the name of the former country 'Czechoslovakia'" but I do still need to slow down and remind myself which ones Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, and Tajikistan are. After I remind myself a few more times, though, the information will hopefully move into long-term storage.

Some mnemonics are fun on their own, though, like "Croatia is the one that looks like a 'C' on its side."
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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Crunchums » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:55 pm

there are two light switches right next to each other at my current place that are counterintuitive in terms of which lights they control - you would guess the opposite of what it actually is. so my mnemonic because that it was the opposite of what i would expect. but then at a certain point i started getting it backwards again, because my own intuition had changed
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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Monty » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:01 pm

There was a Lode Runner level where you had to dig an exact number of holes in a row and I could never remember how many. Whenever I did what seemed like the right amount, there was one extra hole. Somehow, the phrase "Enough is too much" lodged in my head well enough that I can still remember it, and that it did result in the correct number of holes. I don't know why I didn't try remembering the actual number.
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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Starprintsky » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:35 am

Monty wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:50 pm I've been trying to improve my geography knowledge (the lockdown does funny things to a man) by drilling online quizzes, and I've been using a ton of small mnemonics. They're mostly to remember which of two countries goes where, like "Well, Oman and Yemen have similar names, but Oman is alphabetically first, so it's the more northerly one, and Yemen is right below that." That's a mnemonic I don't need anymore, because I have taught myself which one is which by using the mnemonic over and over again. I don't need to remember "The Czech Republic is on the left and Slovakia is on the right because that's the order they appear in the name of the former country 'Czechoslovakia'" but I do still need to slow down and remind myself which ones Uzbekistan, Kyrgystan, and Tajikistan are. After I remind myself a few more times, though, the information will hopefully move into long-term storage.

Some mnemonics are fun on their own, though, like "Croatia is the one that looks like a 'C' on its side."
Did you come up with these on your own, though? I think mnemonics are very useful when you create them, because your personal attachment alone makes them more likely to remember. And if some resource gathers together a bunch of mnemonics you might like to use, and you grab from those the ones that resonate, sure.

I still think setting out to learn by mnemonics as a strategy is a terrible plan, though. Ashenai's right that no plan is perfect and it's easy to blame the plan as a reason to give up, but trying to learn dumb mnemonics that are extremely forced instead of just sucking it up and drilling is going to be a bad time. In terms of Japanese I'm thinking more of kanji damage though, which loudly proclaims how stupid it is that everyone else is drilling, and then proceeds to teach you that 女 looks like a woman and oh amazing aren't kanji so easy to remember when you think of it like that? Here, the next one we'll teach you is 姦 haha three women together is "noisy" isn't this so easy?

I'm pretty sure we talked about wanikani at some point before but I still haven't tried it, so can't really speak to its take on things. Maybe I should!

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 am

Wanikani is interesting because it has its super-specific take on how kanji learning Should Be Done, and that's how you do it. Period. For example, you're given a certain number of lessons, and if you're done with them, then you have to wait until it decides that now is the optimal time for quizzing you again. There's no option to speed it up.

Similarly, it has its own names for the radicals, which sometimes make sense and are sometimes... questionable. But you have to learn them anyway (you can add your own synonyms if you like, and it'll accept them, but still.)

I don't know if all of this is necessary, and it does seem a bit domineering... but it WORKS, and I'm not going to pretend like I know how to learn kanji better than the WK people. I gave it a chance, I found it works (for me at least), and that's what I want. A method that works.

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Starprintsky » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:49 am

Ashenai wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:21 pm Learning hiragana is less than 1% of the effort of learning kanji, and it's 50% of the Japanese you see.
This is suuuper misleading, though. Unless you're working with material for children, you will be able to read just about 0% of written Japanese solely with hiragana. Even just by recognising the "base meaning" for a few kanji you will get much more understanding of what a random piece of Japanese text is about than by being able to read what the verb endings are. Even if you know all your verb grammar it'll still be largely useless.

Seriously you get more out of learning katakana because then you can try to de-transliterate the loanwords and at least know what those are. And even that plan won't get you very far, as I can say from experience because it was my plan before visiting as a tourist.

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:12 am

Okay, true, but the effort/result calculus is still ridiculously skewed in favor. Just learn the hiragana first, you can't avoid them anyway and you can just get them out of the way and feel good about making progress. Plus, learning the difference between 痛み, 痛む, 痛い, 痛める etc is going to be made unnecessarily harder if you can't read the squigglies after the kanji.

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Starprintsky » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:18 am

Mm, I cut the quote down because yeah I don't really disagree with the core point of learning hiragana first. I haven't thought about it enough to make a call either way. Thinking about it a bit now, I'm inclined to agree. Lots of resources for learning Japanese will include hiragana help for the kanji, which would make it important to know first.

Plus the effort thing as you say. We learnt hiragana and katakana in primary school and it was just straight-up fun. Maybe that was just the teacher being a cool guy, though. He played M:tG, too!

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by catonkeyboard » Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:20 pm

Shiny Days wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:10 am ok so, i will cop to ahead of time to at the very least being not educated, from which we can infer many things. and like, ok, it's entirely possible that i'm not the best at learning, and like, you know, sometimes what i'm trying to learn is extremely difficult, and so i should give credence to the people who are more educated than me, perhaps, probably, most likely, who have figured out the thing and are trying to teach the thing and have come up with what they believe to be a good way to teach thing, but, like, man

so like learning html, right. imagine that we spent two weeks, the first two weeks, learning about half of a bracket (<). not a whole bracket. not anything useful or anything that you'd ever use. just half the bracket. because i guess you have to know that. for some reason. so you spend two weeks learning about half the bracket and then it's like ok that was whatever, but meat and potatoes now, right? no. now you have to go to some other website to memorize every single html tag entirely on your own. but not the whole thing! because you're being sold lessons here. just remember anchor image html body etc. entirely on your own. that's only like 20 plus things. but make sure you memorize them! because they're important

ok now we've got through that, stuff that's not useful and memorizing the stuff we were hoping to learn. well, now, we're gonna teach you / get you to memorize some stuff. not that other stuff that you had to memorize on your own by reading a list, new stuff. and, hey, it turns out how people memorize stuff effectively is by getting useless junk to also memorize. so like how do you remember bracket? well, you could just remember bracket, but that's not how people learn. so how about instead of that you remember that you don't need a broken bottle. you need a bracket. broken, bracket. easy. ok, so broken / bracket then the tag that you memorized, on your own, and now you need ref. o ffices have conference rooms and a roof. roof plus conference is a rooference. so just remember office rooferance to get reference and then turn reference into href (because it's hot).

alright, well, fantastic. now i'm memorizing like sixteen things just to get to <a href but at least we're close right, like, i'm learning the thing, right? so what's the next thing. well, remember two weeks ago when you were learning half of an equal sign. now we're gonna stack them on top of each other to create this new thing isn't going to mean or be related to the other thing in any way. am i being fucked with? is this what's going on
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In the end that's what commoditized/standardized education will give you. Because you're not allowed to teach to the student, and you're not allowed to have the teacher do what they think is best.

Having taught HTML/Javascript to a cohort that I would consider "tabla rasa" (Early 2000s teens) I can say that nothing I ever did was remotely similar to as you describe. But I had the latitude to give small adventures and challenges and lots and lots of triumphs. I can't remember much from a single CS books I've read, but I can talk ad-infinitum about silly scripts, and programs and websites I've made.
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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:40 pm


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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:34 am

Image

I'm getting a little bit better with the difference between は and が but it's still mysterious. But I stumbled across this really cool manga panel that shows (part of) the difference!


Okay so the text is:

Momo (girl on the right):
そうだねシャミ子普通にウインナー炒めてたもんね
料理できろんだね

Shamiko (on the left):
」って何ですか!!


In English:

Momo:
Oh that's right, you (Shamiko) fried wieners normally (without issues, like a normal person, in an ordinary way)
Cooking is something you can do, huh?

Shamiko:
What do you mean, wa?!


The key here is that both 料理できろんだね and 料理できろんだね basically means "You can cook, huh?" But in the first one (what Momo said), the は particle puts the focus of the sentence on the part before the は, so 料理 (cooking). So the sentence is saying "COOKING is something you can do, huh", implying that Shamiko sucks at everything else, cooking is the one thing she's not a disaster at.

The normal, non-insulting way to phrase the sentence would have been 料理ができろんだね. The が puts the focus on the part after the が, in this case できろんだね (you can do it, huh). So that sentence would have just said "You really can cook, huh".

Japanese! *jazz hands*

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:36 am

are you reading machikado mazoku??

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:37 am

I am not, I have no idea who these people are, I stumbled across the panel while looking up the different types of Japanese quotation marks. Why, is it good?

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:40 am

yes

Image

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:40 am

I'll look into it!

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Ashenai » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:41 am

Also do you know how the panel I posted was translated into English? I'm curious now.

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:41 am

there's an anime too if you prefer that

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:42 am

Ashenai wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:41 am Also do you know how the panel I posted was translated into English? I'm curious now.
i can't place it do you have the surrounding panels

e: it might be at the beginning when shamiko gets a part-time job cooking wieners? but i don't think momo was aware that shamiko could cook at that time

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Re: Weeb-go

Post by Rylinks » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:44 am

and i don't think a bowl was involved then

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