Throne Magic Archival Repost

Throne Magic Archival Repost

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Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:09 pm

Throne Magic Archival Repost
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Rylinks » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:10 pm

Throne Magic Archival Repost

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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:10 pm

Throne Magic is a Magic: The Gathering multiplayer variant where players are allied with one another or enemies with one another, and can win by exploiting these alliances. In Throne Magic, each player receives a role card telling him or her whom they must defeat in order to win the game. The role cards are secret, putting players in the position of not knowing whom to believe. Throne Magic is based somewhat off of Mafia, invented by Dimitry Davidoff in 1986. If you’ve played the card game Bang!, it will be familiar to you.

Throne Magic is also influenced by “Game of Thrones.” In Throne Magic, there are locations that players can fight over. There are also seasons -- winter is indeed coming, and it is harsh!

Throne Magic should be played with at least five people, and we have tested it with as many as 10. We’re not sure there’s a reason to play with fewer than five — after all, you could just play Two-Headed Giant. But you might be able to construct an interesting four-player game with certain Roles. But fundamentally, this format is meant to be played with 5 to 10 players.

Here are the rules:

1. Role Cards. Before play, each player receives a Role card. The Role card tells the player how he or she wins the game. Winning the game involves eliminating specific other Roles from the game (or having someone else do the eliminating for you). Role cards are secret while their holders are alive, unless a Role card says otherwise.

In standard play, use the following role cards:

If there are five players, use the King, the King's Bannerman, the Usurper, the Usurper's Bannerman, and the Dragon

If there's a sixth player, add the Barbarian

If there's a seventh player, add the Reaver

If there's an eighth player, add the Ogre King

If there's a ninth player, add the Ogre

If there's a 10th player, add the Grassfolk

Shuffle and deal out the role cards face-down. The King reveals his or her Role card and goes first. If the Grassfolk is playing, that player also reveals his or her Role card, and must skip his or her first turn. The Usurper does not reveal his or her Role card now, but may reveal it at any time.

2. Leaving the Game. A player who leaves the game reveals his or her Role card at that time. This may (and often does) cause someone to win the game. The primary way that players will leave the game is of course their life totals being reduced to 0 or lower. Whenever one or more players have left the game, each player must assess whether he or she has won.

In standard play:

The King and King's Bannerman will both win when the Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Dragon, Ogre and Ogre King are eliminated.

The Usurper and Usurper's Bannerman will both win when the King, King's Bannerman, Dragon, Ogre and Ogre King are eliminated.

The Dragon will win when all other players are eliminated.

The Barbarian will win when the King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman and Ogre King are eliminated.

The Reaver will win when the King's Bannerman, Usurper's Bannerman, Barbarian and Grassfolk are eliminated.

The Ogre King and Ogre will both win when the King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Barbarian, Reaver and Grassfolk are eliminated.

The Grassfolk will win if the King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman OR Barbarian win.

3. Throne Cards. In the game, there is a new permanent type, Throne. The game uses one Throne. The Throne itself is unaffected by any game effect except combat damage. The Throne cannot leave play, it cannot be tapped, it cannot be targeted or affected by any spell or ability, and so on. The Throne may have a controller, but unlike other permanents, does not have to have a controller. In standard play, the King begins the game controlling the Throne. The Throne has an ability that acts like the ability of any other permanent.

4. Attacking the Throne. The Throne may be attacked, in the way that a Planeswalker may be attacked. The controller of the Throne may use his or her creatures to block for the Throne, just as the controller of a Planeswalker being attacked may use creatures to block. The Throne does not have to have a controller — if it is attacked when it has no controller, no one may block for it, and there is no defending player against those particular attacking creatures.

5. Taking the Throne. If the Throne is dealt 1 or more points of combat damage, the controller of the source of that damage may gain control of the Throne if, and only if, the Role card of the controller of the source of damage has the type Claimant. The Claimant does not reveal his or her Role — he or she simply announces having earned the Throne and takes it. Taking the Throne does not use the stack. The controller of the damage source does not have to take the Throne, and cannot take the Throne if he or she is not a Claimant. However, if the Throne is damaged but not taken, it returns to the middle of the table and is uncontrolled.

In other words, if a Claimant hits the Throne with combat damage, he or she may either take it, or return it to the middle of the table. If a non-Claimant hits the Throne with combat damage, he or she must return it to the table. The player does not reveal his or her role either way.

6. Throne Abilities. The Throne typically has an ability. For example, The Throne of the Ancient Kings has a life-gain ability — at the beginning of his or her upkeep, the controller of the Throne may gain 1 life for each player still playing. This ability uses the stack and can be affected by things that affect abilities, such as Stifle or Rain of Gore. Other Thrones have different triggered abilities, or static abilities.

7. Abandoned Thrones. If the controller of the Throne leaves the game (e.g. is killed) without the Throne simultaneously being dealt combat damage, the Throne becomes uncontrolled and goes to the middle of the table.

8. Winning the Game. A player wins if the correct other players leave the game as explained in Rule 2. Because of the particular nature of the Roles, a player might lose the game despite not being eliminated. A player may also win by being the only player remaining if no one has managed to win before that time.

9. Giving Creatures to the Throne holder. All creatures in Throne Magic have “T: The controller of the Throne may gain control of this creature.” Note that this is a creature ability and can be removed by things that remove abilities, and may only be activated by the controller of the creature. The controller of the Throne does not have to take the creature, and decides whether to accept the creature when the ability resolves.

10. The Throne Holder Distributing Creatures. All creatures in Throne Magic also have “T: Target player may gain control of this creature. Activate this ability only if you control the Throne.” The targeted player does not have to take the creature, and decides whether to accept the creature when the ability resolves.

11. Public and Private Information. It is public information which Roles are present in the current game. However, it is non-public information who has which Role. Role cards not being used, and Role cards of eliminated players, should be placed where everyone may see them so that it remains public information which Roles remain in the game. Players cannot reveal their Role cards to other players apart from the other rules above, unless a Role card has its own rules for being revealed.

12. Choosing a Throne Card for the Game. There are three methods for choosing which Throne to use in the game. Players must agree on a method:

- Random
- The King chooses at the start of the game
- Players agree on a particular Throne

13. Holdings. (Advanced) Holdings are locations that players may control. They work much like the Throne — only combat damage affects them. However, any player may control Holdings. A player doesn’t have to be a Claimant to control a Holding. Holdings are an advanced rule set. Players should try playing without them at first.

- In the game, there is a new permanent type, Holding. A Holding itself is unaffected by any game effect except combat damage. A Holding cannot leave play, it cannot be tapped, it cannot be targeted or affected by any spell or ability, and so on. A Holding may have a controller, but unlike other permanents, does not have to have a controller. No one controls any Holdings at the start of the game.
- A Holding may be attacked, in the way that a Planeswalker may be attacked. The controller of a Holding may use his or her creatures to block for the Holding, just as the controller of a Planeswalker being attacked may use creatures to block. A Holding does not have to have a controller — if it is attacked when it has no controller, no one may block for it, and there is no defending player against those particular attacking creatures.
- If a Holding is dealt 1 or more points of combat damage, the controller of the source of that damage may gain control of that Holding. Taking a Holding does not use the stack.
- If the controller of the source of combat damage to a Holding does not wish to control the Holding, he or she puts the Holding in the middle of the table, where it is now uncontrolled. A player does not have to be a Claimant to control a Holding.
- Holdings have abilities. For example, Esseldell has a triggered ability — at the beginning of Esseldell’s controller’s upkeep, that player may gain 2 life. This ability uses the stack and can be affected by things that affect abilities, such as Stifle or Rain of Gore. Other Holdings have different triggered abilities, or static abilities.
- If the controller of a Holding leaves the game without the Holding simultaneously being dealt combat damage, the Holding becomes uncontrolled and goes to the middle of the table.
- The game uses a number of Holdings equal to the initial number of players. Players should determine randomly which Holdings are to be used. Those Holdings begin the game uncontrolled. The other Holdings are not part of the game and are set aside.

14. Seasons. (Advanced) In Throne Magic, it is always considered to be a certain Season. There are four Season cards. The game begins in Spring, and the Seasons will cycle through as players leave the game. The Season cards affect the entire table, and nothing can affect or stop the Season cards. Seasons are an advanced rule set. Players should try playing without them at first.

- At all times, one Season card is in effect. The game begins in Spring. Spring has no special effect.
- Seasons change between player turns. Each time a player would have an untap step, check to see if the Season changes to the next Season.
- A Season changes to the next Season if one or more players left the game during the previous turn.
- Even if several players left the game during the previous turn, the Season only cycles to the very next Season. Seasons do not cycle more than one even if several players left the game.
- The Seasons change in order, from Spring to Summer to Autumn to Winter. After Winter comes another Spring, and so on.
- Season cards themselves cannot be affected by anything. Nothing in the game prevents the changing of the Seasons. Autumn has a triggered ability — the ability can be Stifled and so on. But the card itself is immune to all game effects.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:19 pm

Role cards
Spoiler!
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Thrones
Spoiler!
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Holdings
Spoiler!
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Seasons
Spoiler!
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Bonus role cards
Spoiler!
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:22 pm

Note that there are three Farmholds on purpose! I probably should have given them different art.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Khaos » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:44 pm

we could play on table top simulator!

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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by catonkeyboard » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:28 pm

@juri - it won't be a backup if we hotlink to mtglampoon
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:31 pm

yeah good call b0ss

i'll fix that when i have time
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by catonkeyboard » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:19 pm

Juri wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:31 pm yeah good call b0ss

i'll fix that when i have time

Code: Select all

wget -r --no-parent http://magiclampoon.com/ThroneCards/
https://imgur.com/a/YHxCqpe
27/50 states of cats on keyboards
|X,,,,X,,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,X,,,,X,,X,X,X,X,X,,,,X,,X,,X,,,X,,X,X,X,,X,,X,X,,,,,X,|

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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:56 am

catonkeyboard wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:19 pm
Juri wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:31 pm yeah good call b0ss

i'll fix that when i have time

Code: Select all

wget -r --no-parent http://magiclampoon.com/ThroneCards/
https://imgur.com/a/YHxCqpe
goodness me
being competent at shit like this must be really cool
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by catonkeyboard » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:44 am

Juri wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:56 am
catonkeyboard wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:19 pm
Juri wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:31 pm yeah good call b0ss

i'll fix that when i have time

Code: Select all

wget -r --no-parent http://magiclampoon.com/ThroneCards/
https://imgur.com/a/YHxCqpe
goodness me
being competent at shit like this must be really cool
Do you want me to teach you to do that in python?
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Starprintsky » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:54 am

Oooh I can tell you the first four steps, at least

Step 1: Install Python
Step 2: Google error about the path
Step 3: Read that Anaconda makes this easier, install that instead
Step 4: Realise that Anaconda is even more borked because you already had OG python installed when you tried to install it

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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by catonkeyboard » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:08 pm

Starprintsky wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:54 am Oooh I can tell you the first four steps, at least

Step 1: Install Python
Step 2: Google error about the path
Step 3: Read that Anaconda makes this easier, install that instead
Step 4: Realise that Anaconda is even more borked because you already had OG python installed when you tried to install it
Haha, true, I've been on Unix/Linux for so long that I didn't think of that.

To the best of my knowledge, the python installer handles that smoothly now, and pip works natively, so it should be fine (:trey:)
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by catonkeyboard » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:09 pm

I think virtualenvs even work fine, but again lolwindows
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:47 am

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OP updated with rehosted images. Long live the king!
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:47 am

Found these additional images of role cards while perusing Juice's snapshot of the index, but I don't have any text associated with them. It was probably from another lampoon article.
Spoiler!
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:27 am

Here are my new guidelines for the Roles that we now consider "extra."
----------
Priest and Cultist
These two Roles are extra characters to have bigger Good vs. Evil games. They are well-tested and really safe to include, as long as you follow the guidelines.
----------
Titan
Some people felt that being the Dragon can be a drag. We made the Titan as a Dragon who can take the Throne. The Titan is extremely safe to include in a game. He has to kill everybody, just like the Dragon.
----------
Angel and Demon
These Roles are a little tricky. The Angel and the Demon are another way to make the Good side and the Evil side bigger. They're a little strange. The Angel has a special drawback and is unusually vulnerable. You can't use the Angel unless you use another Good Role card, because the Angel would start the game dead! The Demon has a different sort of drawback -- he needs to kill people whom his nominal ally the Usurper doesn't. So the Demon will want to attack potential allies of Evil, such as the Grassfolk. The more non-Evil roles you include, the worse the Demon's drawback is, so be careful. If all the Roles are Good and Evil, the Demon is no different from the Cultist, so you should use the Cultist instead if you aren't already.
----------
Wizard
The Wizard is just plain powerful. He's like the Grassfolk, but with no drawback. You should be very careful including him. He can unbalance any Good vs. Evil paradigm and must be considered to be on either team at will.
----------
Orc
The Orc is pretty much an even stronger Barbarian. He lets you give the Barbarian a buddy. But if the Ogre King or Titan are present, then the Orc can win without his Barbarian "friend." You can also use the Orc instead of the Barbarian just to have a stronger Barbarian. As such this Role is tricky and kind of "designery."
----------
Vengeant
The Vengeant is sort of the opposite of the Reaver. The Vengeant wants to kill all the Lords, but also hates Monsters. The Grassfolk can side with him. The Reaver has to kill him, and he doesn't have to kill the Reaver, so the Reaver hates his guts. He can side with the Barbarian, but this is tricky, because each of them has an extra mission that the other doesn't. There are lots of fun design things you can do with this Role.
----------
Ranger
The Ranger is ultra-strong. He hardly has to kill anybody. The King is complaining about Monsters, and the Ranger just doesn't care. Be extremely careful when including this Role, because we consider it borderline too strong.
----------
Knights
There are three Knights, Orange, Green and Bronze. They're sort of like Grassfolk. But Knights can only win with the King or Usurper. If both the King and Usurper die, then Knights turn into mini-dictators and all have to fight one another. They're fun to include, but make no sense without the King and Usurper AND can unbalance a game with them. So you should only use Knights when there are tons of players. You do not have to use all of the Knights.
----------
Hillfolk and Riverfolk
Hillfolk and Riverfolk are two more Grassfolk. Obviously this lets you have three Grassfolk. Three Grassfolk will unbalance any game unless you have like 10 or more players! You can use just one of them instead of both if you want to have a game full of peasants but don't have enough players.
----------
Wraith
The Wraith is sort of like another Dragon. It has to kill everyone except the Angel or Demon. You can use it simply to have yet another Dragon if you want, but it's more interesting (and dangerous) to use it in a game with Angel and/or Demon. Another difference with the Wraith is that since it's Evil, the Ranger does actually have to kill it. So this is a crazy Role.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:36 am

Neat, thanks!

Which roles do you take out to put those in?
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:23 am

In aid of answering, here's a post I should have made a long time ago.

Here are some setups for Thrones. For each of these setups, you must use the first block of roles listed -- then, the remaining roles should be added in order, i.e., if you have seven players then add six and seven, and do not skip them to add nine and 10 instead or something

Standard
1-5: King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Dragon
6: Barbarian 7: Reaver 8: Ogre King 9: Ogre 10: Grassfolk

Civilian Population
1-5: King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Ogre King
6: Grassfolk 7: Ogre 8: Riverfolk 9: Barbarian 10: Hillfolk

The Great War (even number of players only)
1-6: King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Ogre King, Ogre
8: Priest, Cultist 10: Grassfolk, Riverfolk
The Ogre King and Ogre are disadvantaged upon adding players 7-8, and must play spoiler. They're going to want to smash the Villagers right away if there are 10 players.

Knights
1-6: King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Ogre King, Green Knight
7: Ogre 8: Orange Knight 9: Barbarian 10: Bronze Knight
Knights can be tricky. In this setup, the Knights will win if the King, King's Bannerman, Ogre King, and Ogre are killed while the Usurper lives; or if the Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Ogre King, and Ogre are killed while the King still lives. The Knights will transform if the King and Usurper both die before either has won. This is probably undesirable, so the Knights may wish to defend the King and/or Usurper. If the Knights transform, they all become one another's enemies, and each must kill everyone except the Barbarian, including one another. The Barbarian, meanwhile, must kill roles 1-5, and if he does, he will win -before- the Knights can transform. If the Knights transform first, the Barbarian must kill them too. This means the Barbarian wants to kill the King and Usurper last.

Vengeance
1-6: King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Dragon, Vengeant
7: Grassfolk 8: Ogre King 9: Ogre 10: Reaver
The Vengeant and Dragon may wish to form a temporary truce.

Whispering Demon
1-8: King, King's Bannerman, Usurper, Usurper's Bannerman, Angel, Demon, Dragon, Grassfolk
9: Barbarian 10: Reaver
The trick here is that the Demon needs to kill the Grassfolk while his Usurper partner does not. This gives the Demon and Dragon a reason to forge a temporary truce.

Exorcism
1-6: King, Usurper, Angel, Demon, Wraith, Wizard
This one is very tricky.
- King needs Usurper, Demon, and Wraith dead
- Usurper needs King, Angel, and Wraith dead; but Angel just dies if King dies, making it easier
- Angel needs King alive; and needs Usurper, Demon, and Wraith dead
- Demon needs King, Angel, and Wizard dead; and Angel just dies if King dies
- Wraith needs King, Usurper, and Wizard dead
- Wizard needs either Wraith and King dead; or Wraith, Usurper, and Demon dead
This makes the Wizard directly dangerous to the Wraith and Demon both.
If you add roles to this setup, the Wraith increasingly becomes just another Dragon, so it's not recommended.

Nearly Straight Multi
1-5: King, Usurper, Dragon, Titan, Wraith
6: Vengeant 7: Grassfolk 8: Ogre King 9: Barbarian 10: Reaver
At lower numbers, this one is almost straight multiplayer. With such a setup, the Seasons and Holdings will figure prominently. At higher numbers, some politics is reintroduced.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:29 pm

I need to find the thing where I talk about how to build a game. Let me try to resummarize it right now.

Of course above you see the explanation for a basic game, but now you want to use the other roles and possibly make a crazy game. How do you choose the roles when you want to just go nuts?

There are some basic thumbrules to live by:

1. Player who can win at the same time should be considered a team
2. With roles like the Grassfolk, teams may overlap. For example, in a standard 10-player game, one team is King-Bannerman-Grassfolk while another is Usurper-Bannerman-Grassfolk, and yet another is Barbarian-Grassfolk
3. Do not allow any team to be as large as half the number of players
4. For a crazier game, you can amend that to say do not allow any team to be more than half the players. This is only different from the previous rule if you have an even number
5. If you have no Claimants, then you might have a fun game, but it won't involve the actual throne. This may not matter to you though
6. Make sure that no one has auto-won or auto-lost by your failure to include other roles. The Angel is the main culprit here, but you could actually forget to give the Vengeant any enemies etc. if you're reckless

If you stick by those rules, you should be mostly OK.

Here's a way to build a somewhat random game:

- Randomly choose a role that has to kill at least someone to win. You cannot start with the Angel, and you cannot start with the Reaver because of the next rule
- Randomly choose a second role that has to kill the first role, and that the first role has to kill
- If either of those roles has a direct opposite, add the direct opposite(s)
- Add more random roles until you reach the number of players, ensuring that no team is half the field. You probably want to ensure that each role you add has to be killed by at least somebody, but it is possible to play without that consideration

Example:

- We randomly choose the King (how lucky)
- Now choose from among the Usurper, Usuper's Bannerman, Dragon, Ogre King, Ogre, Wraith, Titan, Orc, Demon, Cultist. Note that other roles do not meet the requirement of both having to kill the King and the King having to kill them
- Now put the counterpart to the first role (the King) into the game (therefore, the Usurper), and put the counterpart to the second role in the game, if there is one. Suppose the second role were the Cultist; therefore put in the Priest
- Now add random roles, making sure that no team gets too big

Example 2:

- This time we randomly choose the Barbarian
- Now choose from between the Ogre King and Titan. You might think, what about the King -- but the King doesn't have to kill the Barbarian, so no
- None of the roles we just mentioned have counterparts, so we're done with that
- Now add random roles, making sure that no team gets too big
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:54 am

I edited my post two posts above to try to answer
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:05 am

Good stuff, thank you kindly.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:55 pm

Do abilities of the form 'Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, ___' trigger when you attack a throne? As written I assume they wouldn't, but it seemed worth checking just how much thrones are treated like planeswalkers.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:03 pm

Juri wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:55 pm Do abilities of the form 'Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, ___' trigger when you attack a throne? As written I assume they wouldn't, but it seemed worth checking just how much thrones are treated like planeswalkers.
Ooh I'm not sure. Do you think they should?
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:43 am

Doug wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:03 pm
Juri wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:55 pm Do abilities of the form 'Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, ___' trigger when you attack a throne? As written I assume they wouldn't, but it seemed worth checking just how much thrones are treated like planeswalkers.
Ooh I'm not sure. Do you think they should?
Well I can't say I'm rightly sure. Let's take a look at a few cards that say 'player or planeswalker' and see how this and things like it would play out either way.


Vow of Torment

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This card (and the cycle it's a part of) are one of the clearest cases for being permissive here. This card is not strictly speaking, a triggered ability of the form 'Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, ___', but it's in a very similar space and the design intent here feels super clear. Having the creature be able to attack your thrones even as it can't attack you and your planeswalkers just feels so strange and invalidates much of the purpose of the card.

Other cards in a similar class to this one:
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Crown of Doom

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This one has the literal wording from my original query. I don't know that it feels quite as odd for throne attacking to bypass this type of card but it still feels a bit 'off'. There's certainly a case to be made for letting throne attacks have less consequences than normal attacks and allowing them to be passed around slightly more readily. I could go either way on these but I think I lean towards being permissive

Other cards in a similar class to this one:
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Silent Submersible

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Including a card like this might be broadening the scope of the discussion a little more than is necessary but saboteur cards like this one don't need a permissive approach at all I feel. Claiming the throne is a reward of its own! Given how many saboteur cards out there don't trigger on hitting a planeswalker the gameplay here feels very 'normal'

Other cards in a similar class to this one:
ImageImage

Tahngarth, First Mate

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If a player attacks only thrones or holdings, Tahngath's ability doesn't let him attack anything. Please somebody, anybody, help this man
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:44 am

Unfortunately all this is kind of just rambling back and forth on the matter. I haven't been able to reach a principled stance on this, or figure out the wording of a rule that would thread the needle in a fashion that isn't needlessly complex
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:45 am

Tahngarth's ability is at odds with things that put something into play 'tapped and attacking' which as-written seem like they WOULD allow you to put creatures or tokens into play tapped and attacking a given player's throne or holding.
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Doug » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:46 am

I think that's a good argument for the following (hypothetical):

- Anything that would trigger off of attacking a planeswalker, or dealing combat damage to a planeswalker, also triggers off of attacking (or damaging) a holding or throne
- Anything affecting the ability to attack planeswalkers someone controls have the same effect on attacking holdings or thrones that someone controls
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by Juri » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:51 am

That certainly sounds reasonable enough
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Re: Throne Magic Archival Repost

Post by catonkeyboard » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:25 am

Juri wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:44 am Unfortunately all this is kind of just rambling back and forth on the matter. I haven't been able to reach a principled stance on this, or figure out the wording of a rule that would thread the needle in a fashion that isn't needlessly complex
As a bonus, thinking of how ridiculous Sarkhan the Masterless defending a throne would be has reminded me how stupid Sarkhan and their dragons pledging their fealty to a planeswalker is.
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