Worth Reading

Long reads you'd like to recommend.

Probably what *this* should be called.
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Ashenai
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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 12:36 am

s. goblin wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:29 am but then what you're saying is like in real life people actually talk like normal human beings versus this weird ironic shit they do online
that is what I am saying

the weird ironic shit is usually self-defence, you do it because you want the people who agree with you to understand your opinion, but also you want the people who disagree with you to have a harder time engaging.

IRL is not like that, you can do irony IRL of course but it's used differently, for actual humor purposes, and sparingly. No one IRL talks mostly in ironic statements, anyone doing that would just be seen as weird and socially awkward at best.

Online you can speak exclusively in irony and people won't even raise an eyebrow. You just sound like an online person.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 12:37 am

im certainly not guilty of thinking my nutso beliefs are so obviously correct that there can be no argument

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 12:43 am

Ashenai wrote:
that is what I am saying

the weird ironic shit is usually self-defence, you do it because you want the people who agree with you to understand your opinion, but also you want the people who disagree with you to have a harder time engaging.

IRL is not like that, you can do irony IRL of course but it's used differently, for actual humor purposes, and sparingly. No one IRL talks mostly in ironic statements, anyone doing that would just be seen as weird and socially awkward at best.

Online you can speak exclusively in irony and people won't even raise an eyebrow. You just sound like an online person.
i understand wanting to have more normal conversations -- the no irony thing is strictly cultural i think, though. but, like i don't personally value a real life conversation that highly because no one can say anything anyway

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 12:45 am

Rylinks wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:28 am i have done a matrix transformation on your post and it seems like you think march seventh is a ditz

very rude
This is untrue! March 7th gets a little bit of a bad rap, I think, because she kind of looks like the ditzy funny manic Pinky Pie archetype! And also the English voice actor kind of also thought she was that, sometimes, and did the funny ditzy Pinkie Pie voice with her a lot.

But that's not her, she has a lot of nuance to her and actually feels a lot like a real person. It's just funnier to flanderize her when talking to people who don't know her that well (kind of like how mimics are always a good Frieren joke, even though that's not what she's really about, and that's not what's actually appealing about her character, it's just the low-hanging fruit)

I like March 7th a lot, I have known people like her IRL and I've liked them a lot too. She seems lonely and scared and socially adept enough to not bother us with all that. I think out of all the Nameless, she is the one who needs this found family the most.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 12:51 am

okay i mean that's all great but i've seen her interior decorating

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 12:51 am

part of the reason i don't have much hope for in-person conversations is that we have a political system that relies on making everyone insane as a justification for power

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 12:57 am

re things being better or worse my prime minister declared martial law for the third time in my country's one hundred and sixty plus year history against peaceful protestors then freezing their and their supporters bank accounts in addition to slashing the protestors licenses

and that's not even the only "illegal" protest / people being arrested for protesting i can think of in the last year or so

also struggling to think of people who got arrested and or jailed (actual jail time) for saying things that uber mexico didn't like when i was a kid

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 1:01 am

the last time we had martial law, in the fucking seventies, was kind of bullshitty too but an actual terrorist organization did kidnap and threaten the life of our then prime minister's friend, so ... like. and people voted for the guy specifically because he was very, uh ... frank

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 1:04 am

Rylinks wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:37 am im certainly not guilty of thinking my nutso beliefs are so obviously correct that there can be no argument
that's the implication irony has towards people disagreeing with you, it's not the purpose of irony. The purpose, like I said, is self-defence, making your positions less... stark and plain and uncompromising and confrontational and assaultable.

Like let's say I go "I don't like cops, I think most of them are corrupt". That's a very simple, straightforward statement of opinion, and that makes it tough to ignore. If someone disagrees with me, they're gonna attack my position, or ask me what I mean, or tell me I'm offensive and wrong. And if they do, I'm basically in it, I'm in that fight, my words are public record.

But what I can do is talk about some story of police corruption and then go "a few bad apples, right?" Which makes my position equally clear to those who agree. BUT, if someone doesn't agree with me, then they have a very tiresome uphill battle in decyphering my real position and forcing me to admit to it and defend it. Especially because at any point I can just go "lol u mad" and then I win, because I typed fewer words than they did. And people know this! So if someone disagrees with my ironic comment, they're MUCH more likely to just roll their eyes and ignore me, or type a pithy ironic comment of their own, and then we just kinda disengage and we can both feel we did okay and didn't lose face.

Every word you type is a point of potential vulnerability, and internet irony is short and pithy. It makes it harder for others to engage with your true positions, which has good points and bad.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 1:06 am

"isn't it good when more people engage with your true positions"

"no because they engage with them in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons"

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 1:07 am

Rylinks wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:51 am okay i mean that's all great but i've seen her interior decorating
It's quite awful I agree

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 1:07 am

Rylinks wrote:"isn't it good when more people engage with your true positions"

"no because they engage with them in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons"
haha

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 1:09 am

Ashenai wrote:
that's the implication irony has towards people disagreeing with you, it's not the purpose of irony. The purpose, like I said, is self-defence, making your positions less... stark and plain and uncompromising and confrontational and assaultable.

Like let's say I go "I don't like cops, I think most of them are corrupt". That's a very simple, straightforward statement of opinion, and that makes it tough to ignore. If someone disagrees with me, they're gonna attack my position, or ask me what I mean, or tell me I'm offensive and wrong. And if they do, I'm basically in it, I'm in that fight, my words are public record.

But what I can do is talk about some story of police corruption and then go "a few bad apples, right?" Which makes my position equally clear to those who agree. BUT, if someone doesn't agree with me, then they have a very tiresome uphill battle in decyphering my real position and forcing me to admit to it and defend it. Especially because at any point I can just go "lol u mad" and then I win, because I typed fewer words than they did. And people know this! So if someone disagrees with my ironic comment, they're MUCH more likely to just roll their eyes and ignore me, or type a pithy ironic comment of their own, and then we just kinda disengage and we can both feel we did okay and didn't lose face.

Every word you type is a point of potential vulnerability, and internet irony is short and pithy. It makes it harder for others to engage with your true positions, which has good points and bad.
this is like a cultural sort of thing where [with the people's support / encouragement] we'd have less of that and more of genuine conversations and or arguments and stuff like that, but then your message board tanks because people don't want to post there because you're not banning <long list of people they dont like>

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 1:11 am

that's sort of like how it's illegal to do and say thing in my country now. but maybe i should just be less terminally online.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 1:22 am

being more present in real-life spaces with real-life people is actually very helpful imo

like every time I spend time with people IRL, I end up noticing how much better/healthier I feel mentally afterwards

It's weird because I don't usually feel bad when I'm alone, I don't really get lonely... until I go socialize IRL, and then after a while it's like I suddenly see the dull grey blanket of loneliness for just a second, just as it is lifted off me. it's something that's very difficult to see when it's on me

I dunno, maybe that's just me, I do have trouble feeling my emotions in the moment sometimes. I've learned that I have to go be with people regularly because I will feel healthier/more balanced if I do

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 1:23 am

also like many things worth communicating cannot be communicated through a clear and straightforward statement in the manner of a highschool debate proposition

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 1:23 am

at least not by anyone with my abilities

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 1:38 am

I have noticed you like poetry, and specifically you like the type of poetry that communicates feelings/ideas straightforwardly and without artifice

Star Rail has Synesthesia Beacons, which are like universal translators but they map to the user's brain patterns instead of just translating words. So there's less potential for misunderstandings, because the translated material retains the original's intent and emotional valence. Poetry (and music) is the closest we can get to that, it allows the author to include more than just words, it allows an honesty that is beyond debate, because you can debate someone's arguments, but you can't debate their self. You can only choose to like or dislike the person.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 1:44 am

i can debate your self. i'll debate anything

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Ashenai » Fri May 26, 2023 1:47 am

you'll lose

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Crunchums » Fri May 26, 2023 1:48 am

Rylinks wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:51 am part of the reason i don't have much hope for in-person conversations is that we have a political system that relies on making everyone insane as a justification for power
i do not understand what you are trying to say here, though i am guessing that i probably agree with it
u gotta skate

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 1:53 am

maybe the most strident examples is fundraising emails, where you send emails to old people saying that the other party is going to send everyone to camps unless you hand over your money

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by s. goblin » Fri May 26, 2023 1:54 am

Ashenai wrote:you'll lose
one of the more interesting debate things that happened is that people shifted from having things that they liked / thought into parts of their identity. makes having any sort of even conversation very difficult because how dare you attack star wars. you're attacking me personally.

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 1:58 am

Ashenai wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:38 am I have noticed you like poetry, and specifically you like the type of poetry that communicates feelings/ideas straightforwardly and without artifice

Star Rail has Synesthesia Beacons, which are like universal translators but they map to the user's brain patterns instead of just translating words. So there's less potential for misunderstandings, because the translated material retains the original's intent and emotional valence. Poetry (and music) is the closest we can get to that, it allows the author to include more than just words, it allows an honesty that is beyond debate, because you can debate someone's arguments, but you can't debate their self. You can only choose to like or dislike the person.
i don't think poetry is honest in this manner; i agree with the general consensus that only a handful of Housman's poems were autobiographical, for instance

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Khaos » Fri May 26, 2023 2:00 pm

i had to talk to some irl strangers recently and they were all extremely dumb, it was frankly a little upsetting

maybe they werent dumb but they were very bad at understanding/communicating ideas

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Doug » Fri May 26, 2023 2:02 pm

s. goblin wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:44 am i can debate your self. i'll debate anything
I want to debate Rylinks' shadow
It's your turn in Cthulhu Wars
It's your turn in Squirrel Wars
It's your turn in Demon Wars
It's your turn in Wall Street Wars

http://devilsbiscuit.com/

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Blissful » Fri May 26, 2023 2:12 pm

Khaos wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:00 pm i had to talk to some irl strangers recently and they were all extremely dumb, it was frankly a little upsetting

maybe they werent dumb but they were very bad at understanding/communicating ideas
was this a work thing?
Image

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Blissful » Fri May 26, 2023 2:12 pm

Doug wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:02 pm
s. goblin wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:44 am i can debate your self. i'll debate anything
I want to debate Rylinks' shadow
ooh sign me up for this too
Image

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Rylinks » Fri May 26, 2023 2:13 pm

is shadow a metaphor

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Re: Worth Reading

Post by Khaos » Fri May 26, 2023 2:16 pm

Blissful wrote:
Khaos wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:00 pm i had to talk to some irl strangers recently and they were all extremely dumb, it was frankly a little upsetting

maybe they werent dumb but they were very bad at understanding/communicating ideas
was this a work thing?
no. work people are usually ok.

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